Joe Miller: Pat Scannon welcome back to Titans of Transition. Yeah, it's great to be back. 

Joe Miller: You've been really busy. one of the reasons why I reached out to you to do this follow up as episode is to hear about your new documentary. That's coming out on project recovery and all the work that this nonprofit is done.

it's amazing. how much. This, idea of yours that came about many years ago has grown and touched so many lives. So can you tell us about this new documentary, about project 

Pat Scannon: recovery? Sure. About, in 2014, we were in the Republic of pal, doing some searches, and a, A company, a production company from Santa Monica, imperative entertainment, contacted us about the desire to document our work.

Pat Scannon: And, we, we had actually their presence with cameras and. Boom mics and all the gear, for, two seasons, actually 2014 and 2015. It's really quite interesting to, to do work while, cameras and audio booms are following you around, you get used to it. And, and they were terrific.

they were real professionals and we had, absolutely no problems. But one of the things that we felt was important was not just to document us searching, but also to follow through with our findings. And in those two years, we made some pretty interesting findings crash sites that had not been discovered before.

Pat Scannon: And, ultimately remains were, were taken from those sites. they were taken into,the, M I, a pow accounting agency and the identifications were made and the remains were repatriated to the families and the funerals were held. And so documenting that full, spectrum from initial discovery.

Pat Scannon: To the final, Memorial ceremony was, we felt very important to the, the whole meaning of a documentary. I mean, why do you do it? And,we were very pleased with the results that showed that, uh, the impact on the families was profound. And at the time when we were invited to these repatriation, we were always surprised by how much it not only meant to the immediate family, but to the extended family, and the community in these, towns that, where the remains were returned and that shows up very clearly in, in the movie.

You're looking for particular service serviceman who was lost, but it could take years before you can have that ceremony. And, during that period of time,you're doing all the research you're going to different areas.

Joe Miller: Continuing to improve your process with new technology, you get very much involved. I think probably in the process. Yes. And sometimes people who look at it from the outside and when they check out the documentary, they'll see all this technology and all this amazing gear and equipment and these minds involved a and you might think that it's all about that, but it really isn't.

it's about that. Closure piece. And I remember reading in the book vanished about that and reading the stories. it's that people side of things, isn't it. That really drives 

Pat Scannon: you. It really is in some instances we've been given the privilege of notifying the family, other times, the department of defense notifies the family in either case,the family goes through stages.

Pat Scannon: Uh, first is, disbelief, what are you, trying to sell something and,eventually you just have to allow the family to work through. And then all of a sudden the impact comes really literally emotionally crushing down on them. When they realize that this individual who has been talked about who has been remembered in many different ways by the families is a real person.

Pat Scannon: And, particularly for the follow on generations that never knew this individual. It becomes so very real. And the picture on the mantle is no longer just that it is. It is the, it is the image of a real person coming home finally, after all these years. And, the family starts thinking about things like how has this impacted my life?

and then they realize, and it's inevitable that there are consequential. Sacrifices that every one of these families has made, as a result of this loss and they it's grown into their family unit. but this gives them number one, time to think about the return home. but at the same time, it brings the families together and it's really, truly been amazing.

Pat Scannon: Some of these ceremonies. people have come from all over the United States. and many of the family extended families have never met each other. They're you know, this is the time when families come together. Yeah. 

Joe Miller: That's amazing. And you are not contacting these people's years ahead when you're starting to do your investigation, cuz you don't know if you'll ever be successful.

Joe Miller: Recovering those remains. 

Pat Scannon: Absolutely. we have a firm policy that,we do not reach out to families. We, make it a point of doing it that way so that we don't raise falls hopes. We also would never ever ask anything of the family. and this way. When it's all said and done, then it's real.

Pat Scannon: And now sometimes the families hear about our work and we've had families. I was wondering 

Joe Miller: about that. 

Pat Scannon: Yeah. And we worked out something with the department of defense, such that if a family contacts us, we're not gonna tell them. We don't know anything. that just doesn't work. we'll share everything we have.

Pat Scannon: In other words, it might be, all we have is a historical record, or it maybe by chance, it's been one of the sites we've been working on. I remember one, one case,I love this story. we had found this. Avenger crashed on a coral, island of P Lou, just off of one of the Japanese runways.

Pat Scannon: And, the department of defense came in and did the recovery operation and didn't find anything. This is not uncommon, or didn't find any remains, but they did find the dog tag and it. For an individual, with the air crew. And,they essentially closed the case, because there was nothing found, I received a call, asking if we had ever done anything on this airplane.

Pat Scannon: And the answer was yes, we have. And they wanted to know obviously if anything had been found and I said, We can connect you with the department of defense and the defense PW, my county agency. And they did. And they learned that no remains were recovered. However, I was speaking to the archeologist and he mentioned that a dog tag had been found.

Pat Scannon: We were able to obtain the dog tag and send it to the family. And the family built a repatriation ceremony around this one dog tag. And it was absolutely spectacular. The not only did the family show up, it was decided to hold it at the high school that this individual had gone to. This is in Alton, Illinois, also the community showed.

Pat Scannon: And we thought it would be a few people and it was a crowd of a hundred people, or more, and with television crews and VFW, salutes. And,it was a great 

Joe Miller: event. That's a little surprising, to me anyway, and I tracked what you've been doing, but, I would think the family may be the extended family, but this community involvement that you've been.

Joe Miller: That's very interesting to 

Pat Scannon: me. Yeah. we've seen that repeatedly in, in Pennsylvania and Ohio and Michigan, Texas, wherever we've had these ceremonies, we've been invited to attend the community learns of it and will turn out one of them. 

Pat Scannon: Had a billboard put up that said welcome home, bud, and that was, during Christmas and the theme of it was I'll be home for Christmas. Okay. 

Joe Miller: and yeah, hear the old song. 

Pat Scannon: yes. And The fire engine had the ladder truck extended with a huge American flag over in front of the church and the ceremony was beautiful.

Pat Scannon: It's just, and people were lining the road all the way to the cemetery, where the. The VFW was lined. The girl Scouts were out with their white gloves saluting the boy Scouts were out. it was all completely spontaneous as far as we know. And so for the people who haven't 

Joe Miller: tuned in before on some of the other things you have done speaking about this work,or my previous podcasts, they may not have the context.

Joe Miller: What you've said before about this openness and the stories that get made up about these law service members. Can you take just a couple minutes and share that? Cuz I think that provides some context for the outpouring of emotion and this sense of closure at these 

Pat Scannon: ceremonies. Yes. when a individual, serving our country goes missing in action.

Pat Scannon: That's very different from the terrible situation where someone is killed in action and returned home, because there's a certain finality to that. where the individual is. they're honored. They're, there's a special place for them. but no such thing exists for an Mia and the.

Pat Scannon: Families are oftentimes left only with a telegram saying we regret to inform you. and the result of not knowing actually builds up in inside of, both the generation immediately effective, but also the following generations and the person starts to take.

sort of a mystical or mythical, some, some unreal sense and the families, oftentimes in spite of the fact that they know that there's a 99.999% chance that the individual is, is. will hold out hope in various ways. One of those ways has been, and I've heard this repeatedly that the individual could be still alive, that the natives rescued the individual, hit him in the jungle bowl, and took and have taken care of.

Pat Scannon: And the, maybe they lost memory. Yeah. Always there's this compulsive scenario. You have to have amnesia involved in their some place. And,and they know deep in their hearts, but because the answer isn't a hundred percent, there's always this chance. and so when it actually happens, I think that's part of the reason that there's this flood of emotions, because they're suddenly released from fantasy into reality.

we had one story where, the family heard that this individual had shown up, in San Diego, after the end of the war with an Asian wife and family. And. When we found the plane, his remains were in the nose to of the bomber. it releases and all of those stories go away but it also shows how time is not on our side, because the generation that we really try to work hard for is the original generation.

Pat Scannon: And as you. Being alive in 1944 and 45. those individuals are passing very quickly, oftentimes with no answers. So we really want to get the answers and get 'em as fast as we can. So the,you get the cross-generational impact.

Joe Miller: Let's swing back to when you first said this, I cannot put this down. And I remember you telling this story before when you and your wife were diving, in Palau and you caught a glimpse of a wing of an Avenger. Isn't that right? 

 well, I don't know. I, that wing.

Pat Scannon: We saw it and it, and I've never found it again. and I have searched and search, you know, I didn't realize at the time how important that winked itwas, it was, it was wedged into a crack of a coral wall. And, every time I go back to Palau, I get in a boat and try to go find, I know about where it is.

Pat Scannon: I just can't find it, but that was my. My first realization of, some of the aspects of war when you see, part of an airplane,immediately nothing good happened. And right then I think a couple of days later was when I found the wing, the relatively intact wing of a, B 24 bomber.

Pat Scannon: And that was the real beginning. 

Joe Miller: What happened? Let's broaden the scope of that point in time for Dr. Pat scan, right. So you had founded one of the early biopharma biotech companies back in, what was it? The eighties? 80. 80. So there was only a handful back then, I think. Yeah. And, For years you were in that career, you got your MD, you had your PhD in chemistry, and then you decided to make that choice of going into that new, exciting direction, fairly high risk

Joe Miller: And for decades, you were involved in that and growing a company and leading this firm, this company developing therapeutic. And then you're on vacation and this thing happens and maybe not immediately kicked you in the chest, but how did it raise into this passionate work to do something about 

Pat Scannon: this?

Pat Scannon: This is really well 

Joe Miller: intriguing to me because so many people, wonder about what their ultimate significance of their lives is going to. I'm not saying it's only in one area or 

Pat Scannon: another, or, 

Joe Miller: you have to make this hard left turn and everything else goes away. You obviously had a couple things going on at the same time, but you weren't exactly not busy.

Joe Miller: no, you were very engaged. 

Pat Scannon: So something grabbed ahold of your path. I was raised in a military family. I have to say though, the thing I wanted to do in being in a military family is to get out and get on my own. I was tired of moving from place to place as an army brat.

Pat Scannon: And, but I think deep inside it left certain important values with me and, And when I saw that wing, it was immediate and it was profound from jumping off the boat to, walking through the shallow water, a few feet to the wing tip, and seeing, the engine, the landing gear,the obvious places that had been hit by any aircraft fire.

Pat Scannon: I just knew. I just knew this was a terrible thing that happened here. And, and obviously if the wing was here, the rest of the plane couldn't be that far away. and of course the boat driver knew nothing about where any of the rest of the wing, what rest of the aircraft was.

Pat Scannon: And I said, That's wrong. We're gonna, I'm gonna do something about it. I, and it's one of those things where you make time, you just make time. And, I, fortunately I had the full support of my dear wife who supported me in many different ways when I was busy with the company.

Pat Scannon: And I was no less busy with the company, but, if you really. Want and need to do something you, you can find a way. And, and I did, oftentimes,24 hours is the day. and after that, it's a new day. I slept less and just found time to sneak away, to the various archives in Montgomery, Alabama.

Pat Scannon: The Navy yard and different places to try to collect information. Cause in 1993, when all of this started it wasn't like we have these internet or anything else, it was all eyeball to paper or to micro fish. Absolutely. That's and that meant you had to go there and. Fortunately, we have wonderful archives in this country.

 so I was able to find out a lot from, going to each of the service, archives and the national archives has great records as well, both, written and photographic and even video sometimes. Cause a lot of the. A lot of the bombing missions were photographed and sometimes even videoed.

and so you could get important information from there as well. and my job, my, my day job, if you will, took me off in times to New York and Washington DC and the national archives is in the DC area. So I could always, get away for a little while. Do some more. And I was doing this all on my own for the first few years.

now we have a PhD historian who lives in the Virginia area, who does incredible work far more sophisticated than I ever could. But, but you had to get started and that's what I did. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. Also, as some, from a leadership standpoint, you quickly realized you needed a team and you.

Joe Miller: Bringing people in to help you. But in the early days, you approached this the same way. You probably approached something in the laboratory and science, you said, okay, I have to get some data. I have to plan this out. you, weren't the type of person we're just going, gonna go back and bump around and see what I can find out.

it's fascinating to see the intentionality of this. 

Pat Scannon: Both for my company and for this,I said to myself, if I'm going to do it, I'm gonna do it the best way. I know how, and I'm not gonna mess around. And, the, for this, I had to you correctly called it. I had to accumulate data and it was data that I could acquire in.

Pat Scannon: In the archives, but it was also data in the field and then trying to link those together so that the archival information and the, and the field information were correlated. And then I could start talking about it and reaching out. And, that took. Six years before I had enough information to go and contact what we call now DPAA has gone through at least two prior versions.

Pat Scannon: And at the time I went, it was called the central identification lab, Hawaii, and then it became the joint P O w Mia county command. And now. D Pia. So, but, and I use them interchangeably because it's essentially all the same philosophy that the department of defense and the people of the United States have invested money, going back all the way to the Vietnam era to look Foria, from Vietnam forward.

Pat Scannon: Yeah. So reaching out to them now I had a database, unfortunately at the time. I was supplying information to, to that agency, but they did not have a mechanism for responding back other than saying thank you for the information. Thank you for the information . But once, once I put the team together and we started, we would make annual treks to pull out because there were many aircraft that were missing and still are missing in Pau.

Pat Scannon: And. We would locate these aircraft and the way we would know DPAA was listening to what we wrote, is that they would start sending out search and recovery teams. And,one of our first big ones was we had found this, B 24 bomber, that had taken 10 years at the time to locate, it was underwater.

Then it took about, let's see, it took about six more years before all of the remains were recovered and the, ceremony in Arlington cemetery occurred. So it is a very long process. but, it really built on a growing base of using the scientific method as much as possible. we actually do generate hypotheses for example, and and try to act on those.

and we had some pretty fun moments as I tried to explain to non-scientists what a hypothesis is and how to generate a plan from it. But,it built a team and the team is strong now. we were called the bent prop project. Essentially from the beginning, we got that name because that's all we ever saw where if we saw a propeller, it was always bent.

Pat Scannon: And, we in 2012, we changed the name to project recover. and at that time we built an, an Alliance. The Scripps university, Scripps institution of oceanography and university of Delaware team members who are doing a lot of our underwater, robotic searches, the really high tech stuff. So we have this three, unit team that now we've been.

Pat Scannon: I think 21 countries since, since 2016. And I've been in 13 of those 21 countries about to be number 14 as I go to Denmark. And, the we're making incredible progress in terms of finding, in fact, we're locating sites much faster than we can do recoveries at the same time, to your point about technology.

Pat Scannon: Technology is exploding really profoundly, particularly in the underwater setting, the underwater robotics have dramatically improved in sensitivity and,and capability so that, the resolution, all of these different kinds of,Tools that you can put into these underwater robotics has just been phenomenal.

Pat Scannon: Interestingly, it's not happening as fast on land. we're still very close to where we were, almost 30 years ago with, with a compass and, a machete and the, and now we have GPS. and one of the biggest advances actually was Google earth, cuz for the first time we could actually see where we were.

Pat Scannon: Yeah. Without 

Joe Miller: actually traveling and get the right kind of upper vantage of the areas that you've identified again, through that research of where the deployments were, where the action happened and zero in on the target area. But then in order to go into the next level of detail to try to identify and find things 

Pat Scannon: yeah.

Pat Scannon: One of our most important tools, is the interview process. The, we have found that to be immensely helpful and by interview process, when we go into a host nation, we will, search out and try to find elders, historians, oftentimes in, particularly in the Pacific island, Oral histories are very, very useful.

the individual himself or herself may have passed away, but the oral histories are kept and we've actually been able to make progress based on oral history, information. it is an incredible cultural experience to do that. each country has their own culture, or cultures. but we are able to go into these countries and by showing respect for, who they are and making sure they understand that we're guests, that we're able to interview oftentimes very successfully and find out information that will not be in any archive.

Pat Scannon: Any other way. We've also done interviews in the United States when one of the first things that I did as I started, collecting information was I would look at an after action report and it would say the pilot or aviators that were flying in, in the early to mid nineties, these guys were still alive and Feist.

Pat Scannon: And, we were, I was able to get some incredible interviews on video, from them that proved to be very helpful 

in many, I think you brought some of this into the documentary, didn't you 

Pat Scannon: a little bit, yes. Yes. One of the green core squadrons. yes, that was a particularly fun one that, that just they're these guys and they're all about 80 at the.

Pat Scannon: But when they started talking about that time in 19 44, 19 45, they were 18 year olds. they, these guys was just incredible to see the vitality infusing through these 80 year old bodies as they reflect back on those times. it is, 

Joe Miller: I recall one of them came back to Palau to the, to a beach where they had fought, and yes, it was a pretty profound moment for 

Pat Scannon: him. Yeah. RV Bergen is a Marine, who landed on, PE Lou at orange beach and he came back and, walked the area where precisely where he landed and talked about that experience. I was amazed on several grounds, the, just, he was. He was, I think, 90 at the time or thereabouts.

Pat Scannon: So to make that long trip, and then, just the emotion of landing on that beach. And, the last time he was there, bullets were whizzing over his head and bombs were going off and mortars were raining on him. the, experience of having him talk about. Was amazing. And I remember he knocked out a bunker and we went to that bunker.

Pat Scannon: It was still there and he walked around it and showed how as a Marine, how he knocked it out, I mean were, and yeah, absolutely. And the story, it's documented that he knocked it out, but here we. The living person showing. And I went here and then I ran over here and, did what I had to do.

Pat Scannon: And, so one of the side benefits of what we do is we get to, they get the privilege of these interactions. and now they're getting extremely scarce. Of course. Yeah. but. But it has been a great adventure in that regard. 

Joe Miller: So the name of the documentary is to what remains there's an easy way to remember it. If you see it, it's the last three words of the movie. So the, of course you have to see the whole movie to remember it, but the. It's, it is obviously symbolic in many ways of, not just the remains, but what happens when they are found and recovered.

I felt very, honored that imperative put everything into it that they did. Really did a absolutely remarkable job, not only of the photography, but the audio. And they did a whole bunch of Hollywood stuff that I don't understand, colorization and audio balancing and, things that I did actually get to see some of that, which was a new experience, going down to Santa Monica, into these various studios.

 When we had our opening night, December 7th of, last year, the 80th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. And we simultaneously opened it up in, in Washington, DC at the Naval yard and Navy yard and at Pearl Harbor and, secretary of the Navy attend. The opening at Pearl Harbor. And so the way it timed was we were literally showing it at the same time.

Pat Scannon: So it was, it was a tremendous opening night for us. And we've shown it now in about 50 different locations around the country and,our CEO, Derek, Abby, And I traveled to about 30 of 'em and did Q and as after the movie was over and we really had a tremendous enthusiastic response to the video, to the 

Joe Miller: documentary.

Joe Miller: Yeah. it's available on Amazon. I think it's one. 

Pat Scannon: And apple. And if you go to our website, which is project recover.org, it'll tell you all the various places that it's available. 

Joe Miller: And I think it's important for those listening in to understand that again, just coming back to this as a nonprofit.

Joe Miller: So this was a pretty big deal, to get the word out to this work that this organization is doing. And I think nudging the rest of. Governmental agencies to take it up a level. That's the way I would say, but it's been very influential and this helps fund your work. And I encourage everyone to get a copy of it.

Joe Miller: A D V D or watch it. You can have a watch party, as well with your family and friends. Yeah, I, it was great. I was flying. back from California, I seen my daughter and I was watching it on the plane, over wifi and that wifi interruption.

Joe Miller: And I think I sent you a message saying, this is phenomenal. I can't wait till I land so I can finish watching this. But it was so well done. And it's, it did a great job of telling the story. Obviously there's a lot, you can't cover everything. it was very moving and informative. but let me ask this question.

Joe Miller: You saidyou've done Q and a, various different times as you've done after these showings, but I'm sure people ask when they interview you, like I'm doing, what are some common questions that you get asked that maybe surprise you or maybe they're just frequently asked? 

they. one, one of the, because when people see the movie, this is the first time they've been aware of project recover and a very common question is why do you do this?

Pat Scannon: And, start at the basics and, from why do you do it, then it is, how do you do it and who funds this? The first, 20 plus years we funded ourselves. we would, if there was a team of six, we would take the total amount, spend divided by six and that's what each person paid.

 we've now grown beyond that. we've had some, generous donors. Who've helped out enormously. And, we interact with DPAA. we find that, working with the department of defense is good. And the interaction is very positive. In fact, we aren't have a memorandum understanding with them, but we also, like to work independent of them, because there are things we can do so much faster. you will be shocked to hear this, but the department of defense is a very bureaucratic organization. it is,I 

Pat Scannon: know hard to believe, we. Find that we can do things so much faster in some circumstances.

Pat Scannon: So one of the things that we've taken to doing is campaigning, and what we will do is we will find a region. For example, right now we're working in, Croatia and the east coast of Italy and Papa new Guinea and the Solomons. Those are just examples where we know there are multiple crash. And so if you come into a country for the first time, there's always this learning curve, but after you've been back second, third, fourth time, they learn who you ares 

Joe Miller: trust established, 

Pat Scannon: Inefficiencies. And so we, we have had, good success with that, but that's something that, Really is not the model that the DPAA uses. They go after a single site as a general rule. So this combination of using the department of fences style and then the style that we use, of campaigning,it balances out and gives us, a lot of flexibility in terms of, what we can do and when we can do it 

as you were talking about, working with them, it, it brought to mind that you actually, on some of these recent missions had, a Navy seal accompany you as well. Didn't you? 

Yes. And yes. yes. Marcus Latrell, the author of lung survivor and movie lung survivor. Yeah. And, he, He was particularly, excited to be with us because three of the POWs that were looking for are, were UDT, members.

Pat Scannon: So UDT is under underwater demolition teams. they're the predecessor of the seals and in the entire history of the UDT seal program, these. P w Mia's are the only three who are unaccounted for. And so he was very interested in participating and, being part of that. And he was very gracious and we were pleased to have him.

Joe Miller: Yeah, it was a very interesting and it's in the documentary as well. So that, for those who are considering watching it, it's interesting to see his interaction. Other service members that we've talked about already and, the mutual respect from, for each other and the relationships that came through that.

Joe Miller: So as we wind down, I want to just come back. Ithe purpose of my whole podcast as talking about transitions in life or career sometimes to happen at the same time often. , but this has been a journey. this has been a multi-decade journey so far for you so far. and as we talked about in the very beginning, it was happening while you were still fully engaged.

Pat Scannon: And by the way, I worked at that company. we worked together, 

Joe Miller: we worked together.It's just a phenomenal story and example of how you can find a passion in the middle of following another passion at the same time.

Joe Miller: So I think there's a lesson for people there that are maybe not fulfilled or think there might be something more, maybe questioning what the significance of their life is gonna be, who will remember them, all those big. you would never have thought when you went on the vacation trip that you would spin something like this up.

Joe Miller: And I would say is probably one of your fondest, accomplishments. You were just awarded weren't you awarded didn't you get an award as well from the daughters of the American 

Pat Scannon: revolution. Is that right? Yes, I got there, patriotism metal. Yeah. So it, yeah, it's very big honor. I standing in front.

Pat Scannon: Over 3000 people, to receive my award in Washington, DC, a block from the white house was, was very special and, totally caught me off guard. Yeah, but 

it's not like you were pursuing that at all. Iyou were pursuing that you were pursuing meeting, G H w Bush and George Bush. All those different connections that they just happened to be in the story arc of where you were headed.

Joe Miller: Going back from that 

Pat Scannon: original, I have to do something about this. They happened to cross your path, right? and in that way, I suppose I do where blinders, I do stay focused and, we have a mission and vision statement. And we live by those and we find that,if we have questions, should we go down this path or that path, we frequently solve it by just reminding ourselves what our vision is and what our mission is.

Pat Scannon: And, and we stay focused, in, in terms of transition. Just to talk about that for a minute, my, my sense was, didn't know I was gonna transition, I thought initially this. An interesting and important thing in my life. I did not realize what it would grow into until much later.

and I retired from the company and more or less started doing this full time. Although I still do consulting for, the federal government in matters related to biotechnology and bio. But the fact that I had this in my life defined the fact that I was gonna make a transition. I didn't, to be honest with you, I didn't think about,should I be thinking about what I do when I retire and, do I want to, what do I wanna do?

I do know this, that if I had to retired and not had project. I've probably been pretty restless. I think fine. I can sit at home and read a book or do something for about a month or two. And then I, yeah. I need to do something, not wired that 

Joe Miller: way, pat. No. 

Pat Scannon: And,I really think having.

Pat Scannon: Other dimensionsin one's life is incredibly important. And because I will tell you this, when you retire, that's it. it's your name comes off the door and you don't have the, you don't have that internet address anymore. And,they're glad to see you.

Pat Scannon: If you happen to walk down the street. No hard feelings. This is, life rolls on. I spent 35 years at that company. And,I would be a stranger there now. so the point is that investing one's life in one's work is important so that you do a good job while you're there.

Pat Scannon: But allowing yourself some other activities that give you other directions to move. I can't tell you how important that is. and I, and somehow I knew cuz again, I didn't sit down and say, I want to create another path, but I did. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. It's really interesting cuz our own self concept and our sense of worth based. A job title or career, or right. What you have attained and, we've all read and seen these stories of people have been extremely successful in their careers, but at the end of their life, it's like, what else did I do?

You know what I'm saying? I think it's a really good reminder that you are more than your job title and you're more. Your career and the plaques and the little mementos that you might collect in the cardboard box, that's now 

Pat Scannon: in the garage. And that's exactly where it is. 

and, for me,I started out as an analytical chemist and, nine years into doing that.

Joe Miller: I discovered that things freshed well before that actually things started frustrating me in the laboratory, how manual it was and how much paperwork it was. And so I get into computers and. The whole it direction and then the running it organizations. But when I was in the middle of doing that, pat, I gotta tell you, I, that wasn't really what I thought was unique about me.

Joe Miller: It was more the people side. And I did not know that I had no clear picture of that. Even when we were working together, I started doing coaching on the side and I loved it, but I still held onto the career, and I had this thing going along and really. Career and the job title. Wasn't what was unique and special about what I brought into the world.

Joe Miller: It just happened to be the venue where I used it at the time. And one of the things I see in you is you see something and, you can make a change, something catches your heart, and you're gonna do something about it. that's one of the unique things that I think you're placed on this planet for.

Joe Miller: And I'm just so glad that you've done that, that you have not held back cuz so many people don't they start playing these tapes in their heads and they go, I can't do that. I can't do that. And they just don't and I think the we're the world is missing out from a lot of people, not putting their gifts into action on camera.

Joe Miller: My stump now 

Pat Scannon: I'm done. No, I think that's very accurate. I think people do have many gifts and often. You may know a person and not know who they really are because they haven't shared those ideas with you. and there is a certain amount of,insecurity or trepidation about,there's something, no one else has done.

Pat Scannon: Why me, if no one else has done it, does that mean it's a really bad idea or does it mean that, here's an opportunity. Yeah. And too many of us think,it must be a bad idea cuz if it was a good idea, someone would've. Oftentimes, that's not the case.

Pat Scannon: And these kind of transitions and, project recover is an example. But you don't have to develop, an idea concept and wind up traveling all over the world. If that's what you like, good. you can do this in your community. You can do this, regionally, there are many different ways.

and and many people do that, but there's just. A sense from what you said and what I've seen, that there are many missed opportunities, 

Joe Miller: many missed opportunities. And so people feel the pull step into it a little bit. It'll 

Pat Scannon: be okay. Yep. It'll be okay, if not, then try something else, exactly. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. So what try something else, pat. Thank you so much for coming back. Been great reconnecting with you. and, best of luck on your you're going, to Denmark. Is that correct? That's your next 

Pat Scannon: trip? Actually, I'll be on a barge on the Baltic sea. Yeah. And it's another mission. It's another mission, a recovery mission for a B 24 that we located, about a year ago.

Pat Scannon: And we're gonna go try to recover remains from that 

Joe Miller:  Amazing. safe travels and, thank you. And, we'll be keeping track of the developments as you go forward with this great work again. Thank you very much again. All right. Take care of my friend.

Pat Scannon:  All right, bye.

Joe Miller: Bye.