Speaker 1: Let's talk about the F word. So what do we mean by the F word? 

Speaker 2: Drumroll. 

Speaker 1: Fulfillment Hi everyone, welcome to Titans of Transition. I'm really happy to have the one and only Karu Jones with me today. 

Speaker 2: Very excited and I know my name gets a little bit confusing. I'm sure you can pronounce Karu, spelt Karu Very confusing. 

Speaker 1: So I'm sure there's a backstory there. 

Speaker 2: Yes, my father it's Welsh. My father is from Wales. The word Karie means and if you can roll your R's, please do, but it means love. 

Speaker 1: Ah, very nice, I didn't know that, so thanks for surprising me with that. Of course, when we decided to connect about the possibility of doing an episode with you, we started talking about some things that are a little bit difficult for us to breach at times with our coaching clients. I thought we could just start out with that. Let's talk about the F word. It's fulfillment, so why don't you take us into that? because it's just a natural follow on from your posting on LinkedIn. 

Speaker 2: Sure, sure, fulfillment is such a broad word, but it can be such a taboo word as well. It's ultimately what fills you up, literally what energizes you, what keeps you feeling you're happiest, and so many of us have some stories in our heads about how we might not be deserving of that, or we will feel fulfilled when, and that when is always in the distance, and so what I love to do I know what you'd love to do is bring that conversation to the surface and just say what is going to make you feel happiest, what does make you feel fulfilled, and how do we go after that? Right, right. 

Speaker 1: So it's interesting too, because it is often a challenge to bring that into the conversation, especially when we're doing coaching engagements, because usually people reach out to us when they are having a mindset more about something they're challenged with in the present And so their heads are into. I have this issue. I have this something I really want to accomplish, but it's really a sort of a short term view, And the other thing I think plays into it is that just at work these days, we are so habituated to this reactive mode, Don't you think? Oh, absolutely. 

Speaker 2: It's the pace of everything, the pace of technology, it's just the pace of how everybody operates, the immediate satisfaction that is needed now because of technology or whatever it might be that's causing it. But absolutely, and like you were saying, those kind of goals, those immediate goals come to mind. But when you and I talk about fulfillment, it's not just that say solid thing, that's a goal. I want to write a book, i want to get a promotion, those are things and those are great, those are goals to have. But the fulfillment part is like what are those things going to give you? What is that gap or hole in your heart that you are feeling, that is just not getting satisfied. And that's what fulfillment is. Is it freedom, is it love? Is it, you know, all of those amazing things that then you have to be able to define yourself and explore, willing to explore. 

Speaker 1: Yes, And I think the other part of that is we talk about our careers and what do we want to do in life, but we're so busy doing it We don't have that kind of deeper conversation. I think when you and I were talking about this beforehand, we said that often people show up and they're not quite sure what's going on. Maybe they're 10 years into their career or their job or what they've been doing and they feel like they want to make a shift or a change And we'll talk about other kinds of changes but it's a change they want to initiate And they're just feeling a disease I'll use the word disease. Something's not quite right. So we talked about that a little bit. What do you see that looking like with your coaching clients? 

Speaker 2: For the most part with my clients, they do have that goal in mind, and so that disease is the not knowing, then, how to go ahead and get that. And also feeling really stuck in that career that they are in or the decision that they feel like they have made and they can't really make some changes. That and or say the beautiful comfort zone of not being able to then shift out and make that scary change. 

Speaker 2: I think also, it's really hard for so many people to define or put to claim what truly is going to make them happy, and that might mean really making a huge shift in what your life looks like today. Maybe you're super senior, you're making the seven figures You're making like, whatever that might be Whatever it is, yeah. If I want to go ahead and own a tea shop and that's been my lifelong dream. I know that will bring me happiness. How do I do that? 

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So that's really interesting. So it is a journey, right. So we talk about that a lot and we've already touched on it, but we have these mental tapes Everyone's used this word tapes or these things that we've been programmed. That we think, is the way things should be, and they could be multiple different sources for those things. It could be our parents, it could be our friends, bosses, mates, whatever. So we have that going on and then we have a clear idea of what our longer term goals are. But we reach these points and one of the tips we have is it should be sort of this straight line progression From point A to point B, with no zigzags in the middle. 

Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be great. 

Speaker 1: Certainly wasn't true for either of us and it's rarely true. I did interview one guest where she said to me oh yeah, i knew all along what I wanted to do and she was on track and has been successful. But that, to me, is a little bit more rare. There is different things that kind of tether us into making forward, progress towards this ideal fulfillment right and filling that hole in our heart. So what are some of the things that you think keep us anchored in the present situation? 

Speaker 2: You did touch on one, the big C, the C-er, The big comfort zone, exactly The C-word, The C-word. Goodness, we're getting foul all over the place. Yeah, the comfort zone. And it's such an interesting concept to think about it, because it doesn't feel good sometimes. So how could that be comfortable? But because if you're not happy or if you do feel like you're just stuck, if I really try to go for that ultimate thing that I could fail at, that then is even more uncomfortable for a lot of people and the fear keeps you stuck. So the comfort zone is definitely one of those things that keeps you tethered. 

Speaker 1: We're talking about crossing this chasm from where we are and where we want to be. The thing I think about in the comfort zone, often too, is fear, our biological programming for safety and wanting to avoid risk, you know. So that's definitely one thing I think is fear. You'll often talk about fear or failure. Yep, it could be sort of a nuance, and that would be fear that maybe I'm wrong about what fulfillment looks like, and so you're afraid to make a mistake. If you're failure in terms of the wrong call, maybe You could still be successful. See, this is the little twist You might get money thrown at you and accolades, but it's possible that you can be good at something but just not fulfilled. That happens. 

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely Absolutely One thing that I noticed. So when I was leaving my full-time job to start my coaching business, i was telling everybody I was currently working with if it doesn't work out, yeah, i'm going off to do my own thing. But if it doesn't work out, you know, i've always got the HR thing that I can fall back on. And I caught myself after two conversations of saying as luckily it wasn't sort of more than that. And on the second conversation I had to have a conversation with myself to sit there and say what are you doing, carrie? Why are you preempting? 

Speaker 2: And it was because I wanted to make sure that if it didn't work out, that those people knew that I would be okay, because I was already telling myself it's okay if this doesn't work out. And immediately I had to stop myself and say this is gonna work, i am going to make this work, and if it doesn't, i am going to figure out things from there. But I don't need people to think that I'm going to be okay, i'm gonna just deliver on whatever that is and whatever the moment is carrying. So it was like interesting to even notice that fear was showing up in that way and I wanted to make sure that everybody else felt okay about it. 

Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's that part about who's watching and what are they gonna think about it. They're gonna think I'm crazy, why are we doing this? One of the people I interviewed she was in my high school class and I connected with her. She went from a corporate job and she loved Pilates And so she was a Pilates instructor on the side. Finally, she said I wanna go all in on this She actually sold her house on faith that she would land a job teaching Pilates in the Caribbean, in San Martín, at this one hotel that she had been to before, and before she got the confirmation, she actually booked her flight, sold her house and was ready to go, and so that's kind of rare. Most of us do have a backup plan, but this piece of it that you're talking about, where we have a story to tell as well, that's quite interesting. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting what you're saying and is that some people are okay with that risk So we were talking about comfort zone. 

Speaker 2: But then there's that part of people just naturally like I'm okay to do this, i'm okay to take the leap, and that's wonderful. 

Speaker 2: But then the other stories that you're talking about, those other tapes or rules that maybe get collected through either our teachers, our parents, society, whatever that is then it's like how do you keep and how do you sustain yourself in your then pursuit, your then journey through really feeling that and being present to that fulfillment in the current moment, the second that you start to listen to either your own judgment or the judgment of others or, as I also like to say it, the judgment that we put into other people's mouths when we tell ourselves stories about what they're thinking, but we have no clue. And those are the times, then, where we start to deny ourselves once again of that joy and that fulfillment, because we're telling ourselves that this isn't possible, we're not good enough, we're not worthy or whatever that might be. So you might be ready to take the risk. You've also got to be willing to and have the tools to be able to stay in that focus for yourself of I am deserving of a fulfilling life, and that is happening right now. 

Speaker 1: That's really good. So that's, we're getting into the lessons learned here. So let me ask you is there a personal example from a transition where you've applied this or where you learned that particular lesson? 

Speaker 2: It's constant. It's a constant learning. But, genuinely, when I left my full-time role to start my coaching business and I would say I'm kind of in the camp of like the 50-50. Of course, it was risky, but I also had done sort of like a lot of real, really long pre-thought and some planning, but there was that pull within me. 

Speaker 2: I had the calling. I knew it was from my part. I knew that this is what I needed to do, so I took the leap and it didn't feel scary for me and I was able to continue through the part of it, though that the current stain in the moment, loving the journey, coming back to that fulfillment every single day or moments throughout your day that's the muscle that I've really had to work on through this transition, because there's hard days or there are things that you don't necessarily like to do when you are owning your own business. I'm not a marketer, but I have to do that, and so how do you continue to feel fulfilled? And it's all about that balance, and it is all about continuing to come back to yourself and what you are doing, your why, your purpose. 

Speaker 1: That's really good. The other thing I think that kind of plays into this and something I've learned is that is getting off the outcome being in the moment. you should have joy about what you're doing, regardless of the money coming as quickly as you wanted it to, or the number of clients or the externals, the internal resonance that you're on the right path here, that you're in the right space for you, uniquely for you. This is the right thing. I think that's a big lesson, because the other thing, too, is you have to continue to keep on keeping on and trust yourself. 

Speaker 2: Keep calm, carry on. 

Speaker 1: There it is, carry it on, get on the back wall. I'll have to zoom in on that. So that's definitely one. And you said something else, and that is choosing to do something like you have going to coaching. I think there are other things around it That need to be done. Those things don't necessarily have to be done by you Ultimately, maybe initially they do. 

Speaker 1: The marketing, the things that you're not thrilled about, and you and I have talked about this before. I'm not the best follow through person and organizer, and all the people that worked for me are going oh man, is that so true? So would farm that out. And that was a big lesson for me, and early in my career I used to be an IT executive. So early in my career I felt like if I didn't shore up my weak areas, then I was failing, and if I had to have someone else cover for me in a certain area, i was failing. What I learned was, in order to really take advantage of my strengths and my natural gifting and to be fulfilled in doing those things, i needed to allow other people to be in the lead position. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i love that from the perspective of playing to your strengths, and sometimes I get it in corporate roles. Sometimes organizations aren't structured that way or managers don't have the know with all to be able to help support you in that way. But if you can, and as much as you can, playing towards your strengths, it does allow for more of that fulfillment because there's more internal validation that you can get, because it feels good, because you know you're good at it, because you've got that flow. But when you are struggling through or when it becomes a hard time back to your other point as well, like your ego is gonna start to look for that external validation. We all do So. Do not beat yourself up guilt-wise because you're looking for that. But where that fulfillment can come from is also having that internal validation and believing in itself. 

Speaker 1: Yes, and I think, as we are sharing now that we've reached, we're doing what we love to do. of course I'm retired, but I'm doing all these other things, but I'm doing the things I love to do. I didn't arrive there until I made several career shifts. I started as a scientist in the lab and I did that for nine years before I went into IT leadership. and in the middle of IT leadership I realized that technology and process optimization were great, but I really enjoy dealing with the people, so I get into coaching and some other things. That wasn't really what fulfilled me. It was sort of a subpart that I really got energized by, and for you I think it was similar. You made a couple of different shifts before you landed. 

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, i think I was telling you I originally thought I had no idea what I wanted to do Technically. I wanted to go and dance, but my father wasn't sure that that was really gonna make me enough money. So then I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll do kinesiology When I had never done biology in high school. I hate blood. I flung for my first year of university because I had never done this stuff before and also it was queasy, it was terrible. So when I shifted into psychology and as many people did back then, it was that default subject that you then went into. But I was genuinely really interested in people and how they thought and in their actions and just all sorts of stuff. So that at least was a good pivot, and I thought I was gonna become a psychotherapist, but after working in the psychiatry clinic for a while it just was not for me. 

Speaker 2: But what I learned this I think was quite important is like you start to learn along the way, whatever pivots you're taking, what works for you and what doesn't work for you. Biology, blood not working for me, but people and socializing with them. I was also able to really build trust super easy and I'm a very organized person. And so then I think, okay, those are my strengths, how do I apply that next? So then I eventually fortuitously got into HR but funnily enough, before even making that transition to HR I was toying with the idea of coaching. So you talked about it's not a linear journey for your career. Mine kind of went squiggly and then around here and back in a circle, but I'm glad that I had the experience in. 

Speaker 2: HR, and in growth and in leadership and everything to come back now to be an executive coach and to help people through this next chapter. 

Speaker 1: There's actually an internal and an external validation that you're on the right path, so sometimes it takes experimentation to get both of those things right. I said this a number of times I feel like you're dragging a huge rock up the hill. It's probably a good indication. This isn't really something that's taking you towards your fulfillment. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't mean things can't be challenging. But even when things are challenging there's a different level of internal energy there. 

Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah as you were saying that I was thinking energy. It's the biggest difference, for sure. 

Speaker 1: And then also external verification. If people are trying to figure out what it is that is their unique thing, what's their superpower, what's their gift that they're given from above or whatever, i think you gotta go a little bit more niche down than just someone saying you did a great job at that. You need to ask the person who gives you some positive feedback what specifically was good about it And dig into it a little bit, because jobs don't necessarily map to, i think, what our superpower is. I think you said the people part, right, the engaging people, encouraging others And I know this from interacting with you being very thoughtful, being very great listener. Those are things that line up mostly with being a coach, but Aspects of that. you could be a good boss, you could be a good teacher, so it's these kind of gifts. They're not bucketed in just one job description. 

Speaker 2: Absolutely. And back to an earlier point you made, like we're all running a million miles a minute, yes, and so it's hard to hear what our heart and soul really wants, and For me, it certainly took me to slow down to hear even that. I wanted to follow now this pursuit of becoming a coach I had. I was in one of my most burned-out stages of life. I started going to a Reiki specialist. 

Speaker 2: I've been seeing this person for three or four months and so, being able to slow down, it's been an hour with her of guided meditation, basically, and it was in like our fourth session where I remember she was at my head and she said, carrie, what do you love, what do you love during your day? And it just came out coaching. I love helping people, i love unblocking the challenges, i love cheerleading people along, and so when we can slow down and we can then start to listen to what is it that our Heart wants, and then how do we apply those skills? And I know the uber judge and me years ago would sort of whoo-hoo on listening. That's not a super skill, but look at all these other people who can do all these other amazing things. But don't forget that the soft skills, and the hard skills can help get you to, and they're just a piece of that Venn diagram to tell you what that career opportunity could be for you. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, so we talk about that Venn diagram so often we talk about your skills, talents I layer in gifts. The other thing that people tend to put into that is money, you know sometimes. So that's all great, but how you're gonna survive, and I think that's that's kind of valid, but I don't think we spent enough time thinking about those innate pieces in us. To be quite honest, you can develop skills and things and be okay or even be pretty, pretty good, but it's still not, may not fulfill you, as we've said before. I'd like to transition here a little bit and talk about a special kind of transition that I think people go through. We've spent quite a bit of time talking about Transitions that you would choose, but let's talk about the transitions that get thrust upon us and this is quite timely now, right. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, and for anybody listening who has been laid off, it's a Traumatic experience, even if it wasn't your first time, you know. But to have that choice taken from you is always going to Swipe you sideways or have the rug pulled out from underneath you. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's been tens of thousands of people laid off in the past several months. Yeah, the economic challenges were going through and this happens. You know, It's kind of like getting caught in the big storm for those who get surprised by This external thing you could do nothing about and you shouldn't feel bad about it. So let's talk about that one situation, as it is all of a sudden. You know It doesn't even have to be a Friday absolutely the How companies are doing it. 

Speaker 2: You know, there are some companies who are able to work through the circumstances terrible circumstance in a very Honorable way, and others that are not at all. But no matter what, i think that the blow is still just as difficult. 

Speaker 1: Yes, and so now you're in the middle of oh my gosh, and depending on your financial situation. But I think most people are kind of like I need to scramble, yeah, and now I'm racing with tens of thousands of other people potentially to try to find Positions. They're shrinking in this economy So it doesn't necessarily get you into the mindset if you're not clear about what is fulfilling for you. Sometimes you have to give yourself permission to do something else as an interim step. 

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, and I think that Some of us know that, feel that maybe just through experience or like whatever it is. 

Speaker 2: But we've got to secure ourselves, we've got to make sure we've got that roof over our head and we can purchase the food whether it's for us as individuals or our family, is like, whatever your circumstances. 

Speaker 2: And so that Honorable thing of leaning in and leaning into your network and Making sure that you are doing the things to be able to help land that next role and that next role may not be that most fulfilling thing for you and permission granted to you know, to make sure that you're simply Securing something for the headspace, even then that you can think okay, so now I have this next role. Trust me, that PTSD is still going to be there because you're gonna be worried about, well, maybe this one's gonna let go, may, or whatever it is but Being able to then, once you've secured that role, take that time and space and be able to then think about okay, what lights me up inside? What is it that I really want to do? and it might be that thing that you land, which is great, that next step, but be okay with that, might be just a in transition role. I. 

Speaker 1: Think it's a good time for reflection. Regardless, yeah, it may be that you can do sort of a slight shift. One of the things that I think Shows up when you interview and can make all the difference, that is your passion level for what you're interviewing for. And so you may have had a history of a certain job title or something like that, where you were successful in it and The inclination is I could do the same thing. It's going to be the easiest and most direct path of finding a job, but it might be a little bit of a shift into something that's a little more aligned with what you're passionate about. Well, actually help you secure something sooner, then staying with something that you know wasn't really lighting you up the way you like. 

Speaker 1: Absolutely and then if you are lucky enough to get multiple offers, then that's a criteria you can look at one against the other. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where I like to play with values and make sure that you know your core values and See how does that line up. 

Speaker 2: Now, it's not going to match up Toe for toe, probably, or whatever that phrase is, but you can look at The boss that you'd be working with or the team that you'd be working with, or even are there some similar Values that company might have that you feel very connected to as well and, like you say, like being able to use this time as reflection and Be able to give yourself some space as well, that it's not just about Securing that next role, that you are entitled to some some time in space right now as well to Reflect, to see this maybe even as an opportunity. We don't like getting shoved into the next or, like you said, thrust into Into this next chapter of our lives. We love that to be our choice, but at the same time, too, sometimes the universe is able to do us a solid and it hurts and it's scary, but always taking that time to think is this an opportunity where I can make a shift? And that role that I was doing was keeping me in my comfort zone. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, so it could be actually an ideal time to to take some time and And reflect. I love the way you said be kind to yourself of yourself, a break. I like that whole thought process because I think When we lose our job or a position in this kind of way with the masses, we can still tend to think why wasn't I chosen to stay? and we can get into that whole negative trap. If you have been let go and not part of thousands of people, then I think it is a good thing to really dig into and learn from, but not in this particular situation. In terms of lessons. Wow, I will say this, and this applies to both transitions that were thrust upon us and also other transitions we may choose. There is some things that I think are helpful just to make sure we have clarity about our forward trajectory and what we want to go for. One of them is to take some half steps. I like the idea of doing informational interviews. We didn't talk about this in our pre-meeting, so I'm springing this on. 

Speaker 1: I think sometimes we have an idea in mind but we have no way of verifying that it's a good step to take. Even if it's a slight shift, then this could be in a number of different directions. This could be doing something that's a little bit different job, but still in the same job family. or it could be like I don't really want to manage people. Yeah, Could I potentially get into something that's a little bit more technical or a little bit narrower or niche, but doesn't have people reporting to me. Or maybe I really like the idea of doing something that's sales related, but that's a big step. 

Speaker 1: Maybe I can be a sales engineer or someone who goes alongside of the frontline sales person and supports them. Or I like the idea of being involved in product, but I haven't had any experience during product. Is there a hybrid position or something I could try? Or it could be something completely different, but reaching out through your network and finding people you could talk to and say, hey, can I just sit down with you for a cup of coffee and have that discussion? So I don't know if you get into that with your clients, but that's something that helped me a lot. Yeah, I went through these transitions. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. There's the informational connections, conversations and I certainly did that when I was looking into becoming a coach. So I reached out to all the coaches I had hired in my HR role and other coaches that I knew outside of that or was introduced to some more, and continue to explore what does that look like and what did they need to do to get to where they were. But I think that the other key as well is that in whatever stage you are transition career-wise, personal, like, whatever it might be but our networks and that's such a everybody hates that word networking, network, like whatever, but our connections are super important. It's something that I really didn't truly invest in early in my career and now have doubled down and gone the other direction. It truly is important and I really do try to encourage everybody to stay connected. 

Speaker 2: It is also okay if you haven't been connected, but right now you are in a place where you really need to leverage your network. People want to help, so reach out and be able to say hey, i know we haven't spoken in three years, but looks like you're working with this person and I was just curious if you would be willing to introduce me. People will say yes, they'll say, no, i don't know that person or whatever it might be, but you've got to ask and don't allow any of those stories or tapes that we were talking about to say, yeah, but what did they think about me? I haven't spoken to them, but keeping those connections going in the times where you need people and the times where you don't like whatever it is. But connection truly does help at any stage in your career and it gives you more information, like you're saying as well, in terms of what it looks like to do the thing that they are doing or, at the very least, just have a really good conversation with somebody. 

Speaker 1: That's great, i agree, and I think that I'm a little bit more of a connector perhaps than you are, but I certainly did learn a number of years ago, kind of mid-career, really start boosting up my network. It's a great thing to do and help others. So that's the other thing, too, that I encourage people. You may be in okay situation, but you see posts in LinkedIn or something like that, where someone is seeking something. You may know something. Help other people out. 

Speaker 2: It's a community here. Yeah, absolutely. 

Speaker 1: No, i was just going to say. Some may be curious about coaching. Maybe they've never had a coach before. Obviously, there is a financial investment. There's an investment of your own time and your focus, and I think it might be good to talk a little bit about transitions and having coach help you out, and I encourage folks that, even if they're in the middle of a situation where maybe they've been laid off, having a coach can be really helpful to keep your head on straight. One of the big advantages is having a confidential conversation with someone who has been trained and certified to be able to help you navigate through situations just like this and help you navigate in terms of how to reach these fulfillment goals. You will have as well as tactical advice. It's great to engage with a coach or a mentor, and we might want to unpack the differences there a little bit, but your thoughts. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course we're going to be advocates for coaching. Of course, but truly. I mean, if I knew the power of coaching truly, truly knew the power of coaching, how it has transformed my life, my own coaching, i certainly would have invested years and years ago during times of transition, or not in times of transition, like whatever that might be. It's funny because our life is this seasons are in transition, like there's just always something changing. 

Speaker 1: You're always yeah. 

Speaker 2: And when we're thinking about fulfillment, we are constantly works in progress as well, and our brains will easily default back to the fight or flight or survival mode of any source, and so that means that our brains will be continuing to try to keep us in our comfort zones, and so we've got to continue to build those muscles, the other direction, to be able to support us to think about things positively or more productively or stay focused or think about creativity, and a coach can really help to give you the tools to do that and also to hear it when it's happening point in time. 

Speaker 2: So many times I mean, i know for yourself too, like we'll be in sessions. You just need to stop your client, like you're swirling or you're beating yourself up, but and we do it too And so it is about that, yeah, like people invest in personal trainers, like your coach can become that mental, physical, strengthening trainer for you, so that you are looking after yourself, mentally, building those muscles to be able to go out there and just live that most fulfilling life for yourself and to choose happiness. And and that's the point too Like I still need the reminder sometimes, but we are constantly a choice and having a coach to be able to help remind you of some of those choices And even to help you unpack, like you've got all the information in you that you need, but sometimes it's hard for us to find that ourselves, and so you might need another person who can simply sit there and ask the simplest questions, but the hardest questions to answer. 

Speaker 1: I think that's just so powerful because having that person that you can trust, who will speak back to you what you have just said to them, and you hear it from somebody else and you go oh, i don't like the way that sounds or someone who can give you some specific guidance and tactics and exercises to go through to gain more clarity, it's just invaluable, it's just huge. I just want to share a personal story here and that is oh gosh. I went into a different industry back in my career and I had been doing pretty well and growing and I purposely went to this other organization to get more scale, more body count to be crass about it people managing, because I knew that was an important criteria, looking to continue in advance, and I did well initially. But, oh man, i got into a situation where I got sideways with my boss and I don't even know how I did it, to be honest And I started scouring online and looking at different books and the whole notion of coaching came up and this was quite a few years ago, so it wasn't as common as it is today And I found someone and reached out to them and this was all remote, this wasn't even in person, it was over the phone and it was so beneficial to me, and it was actually through that experience realizing the value you could gain from that kind of relationship with someone who was looking for you to be successful, but what they weren't going to mince words When it got down to it, they were going to be really clear, direct and help you. 

Speaker 1: Just like you would envision a professional trainer, and I think that's one of the distinctions and tell me if you have a different perspective on this I feel like a mentor to someone who understands your field that you can go to informally to have conversations and they'll give you advice based upon domain knowledge and other life experience too. 

Speaker 1: But rarely do I see here about mentors challenging you to break through the things that are holding you back. They might give you some unvarnished feedback, but they're not with you for the long haul. They're not with you through the whole process, and I think that's where coaching which is not psychotherapy, please, but that's where coaches can be really valuable You get a coach when you really want to make progress, no fooling. I had this guy I worked for years ago who would ask me if I was going to be able to get something done. He used to always tag it with I'm talking, joe, no fooling. You're telling me no fooling, you're going to get this done by next month, and I think about that. That a coach is someone who can really ensure that and hold you accountable. 

Speaker 2: So anyway, No, i agree, There's really such a huge piece to it as well And, like you've said already, the confidentiality. It's not psychotherapy, but certainly there are times where you do need to come and offload And there isn't maybe a healthy place to be able to continue to do that. Maybe you're in a relationship and you've been taking all that baggage from work to that relationship And it's weighing on the relationship, and so it's like there is a space for what it is that you need And the coach is there to help create that space. And sometimes it is that listening error. Sometimes it's like we've had these goals and we're moving forward. Sometimes it's hold on, let's stop and celebrate, because we often forget to do that too. So your coach is that bit of a chameleon to be there to get you to that ultimate place where you want to get to. 

Speaker 1: Okay, i'm done selling the coaching thing. 

Speaker 2: We're done with that. 

Speaker 1: Never, never. So before we get off the topic and kind of wind down, i wanted to just chat with you a little bit more. I want to. I think we need to take a little bit more time to talk about fulfillment. We've talked about it in a couple of different directions in light of different kinds of transitions. We've kind of defined it. But it is something culturally at least I know in my career path in science and technology which we got into the whole pushback I used to be one of them earlier in my career where it's like we would all say, oh, here comes HR, they're giving us this warm and fuzzy class we have to go to, we're going to all have to hug or something. 

Speaker 1: We don't do that today, but that was the speed. It was like, oh, this is worthless, it's wasting my time, i have to get something done. Why do I have to attend this? Why do I have to listen to this? And then, as you get a little older and get a little bit more bumps and bruises in time in the saddle of life, you go oh man, this is really what it's all about. We hear those stories about people who get to the end of their life. They're uber successful and they say what do you wish you would have done? What's your regret? What do they say? More time with my family, all those fluffy things. What's your thoughts on fulfillment? 

Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean now more companies and there's more studies out there about how happiness happy employees, happy teams, happy everybody but happiness in the workplace really can lead to more productivity, more focus, efficiency, more profitability of the business. So there are studies out there that are showing that happiness, that fulfillment, helped also move the needles that the boards are all focused on, or whoever it might be, but the powers it be who are looking at the numbers shouldn't shy away from how important fulfillment and happiness is in helping to also reach that goal. And when you are more fulfilled in what you're doing, it just makes sense. I wouldn't need a study to go out there and to tell me that I'm going to be more engaged in my work. So hopefully there can be more conversations and don't leave it just to HR. 

Speaker 2: I always used to say if all the managers and leaders were as fantastic at leading their teams, you wouldn't need HR. I will step away. So as leaders and that's also what I like to focus on my soulfulness leadership, that's about being that brave person to come in and have a conversation about how you are helping to roundly look at this person, this human who's in front of you, and say, okay, what's going to energize you, what motivates you? How do you feel fulfilled? And that's how your team then grows together and succeeds together. 

Speaker 1: Yes, i love that And I like that you brought in the whole leadership topic too, because I asked leaders that I coach how do they engage with their staff? They have one-on-ones, but what does that one-on-one agenda look like? And what I challenge them to is have developmental conversations with their team members, their staff, and not just have operational checklists, check items, which, honestly, that's more of what happens on a weekend, week-out basis. And we talk about the individual, you being fulfilled and you're choosing your direction. But a leader wants to foster growth in people who are underneath of them. The more they can take on, the more it frees the leader up to then stretch up themselves And it's been more time in the future planning and in exercising their own gifts and passions, the better. 

Speaker 1: Everything goes for everyone. But it is truly very, very important. It's essential, i think, for retention. It's essential And I think people can tell if you authentically care for them and want them to be in the right slot and try to coach them in directions where you see them shining and using their gifts. So fulfillment is so important. It's ultimately the most important thing I think that we can lean into And I challenge everyone listening think more about these sort of long-range issues. These things will never be enough time for you, unless you're intentional about bringing them into your life. Have this kind of focus. 

Speaker 2: I think also. I just want to say one thing too, because to everybody that might think that we're talking about everybody living in La La Land and having the happiest employees out there and everything. There are also studies that say, if you're happy 20% of the day, so your role that you are doing out of your eight hours, if you're happy for and sorry I'm going to do the math immediately two hours, but if you're happy for 20% of your day, that is feeling fulfilled, that is the happiness level that keeps you engaged, that keeps you productive And that might be the simplest thing. It could be that you really do love organization. It could be that you really are able to use your creative muscles. 20% of your day or more Doesn't mean that you have to be 100% of the time, always happy, always motivated. We're not talking about that. I think maybe there's drugs for that or whatever. 

Speaker 1: Happy, happy, joy, joy. 

Speaker 2: But being able to find that balance for your team, for yourself, is really that. Aligned balance is what we're talking about. 

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the show. 

Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 

Speaker 1: I want to give you a little bit of time because I'm sure some people, at the very minimum, want to know how to connect with you. 

Speaker 2: Sure, absolutely, and thank you for that. Yes, right now I'm still focused on the one-on-one coaching, so I don't have any big programs or workshops or anything running right now And in fact, my thing is I'm really passionate about creating bespoke programs for every individual. So all of my clients we have a different structure and we work together And what is going to best suit and best elevate that person to what they're looking for. You can reach me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, my website, which is carugonescom. My Instagram and my LinkedIn is also carryjones. Spelt C-A-R-U. 

Speaker 1: All right, great. I'll also put all these links in the show notes as well, so make it easy for folks to reach out to you. I'm so happy to have you on Titans of Transition. You are a Titan of Transition, yay. So if there's any specific feedback or comments, we would love to hear that. Feedbacks likes, if you like what we've dug into, give us some encouragement and forward it on to friends and family. That can serve as well. So thanks again for being on the show. 

Speaker 2: Carrie. Thanks, Joe. Good to see you. 

Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of Transition. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please check the show notes for additional information.