Joe Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to Titans of Transition, having challenges, finding that right job for you. Tune in. As we talk to Sarah Baker Andrus, a job search strategist who has been on all sides of the job search equation, both filling positions, recruiting, and also advising candidates to nail that. Perfect. Come listen in as Sarah blows up some of your assumptions on what it takes to land that job.

Joe Miller: Okay. Let's get into it.

Joe Miller: Welcome everyone. I'm so happy to have Sarah with me today, um, really fits in well with the theme of this podcast, Titans of Transition. Sarah is a job search strategy. And I love her tagline. She says I help people make bold career moves. I first came across Sarah. Uh, she had a TEDx talk up and, it was, really great.

Joe Miller: And I said to myself, I Jetta to note, I needed cut to reach out to Sarah and see whether or not I can get her on the podcast and the YouTube channel. Sarah has an interesting background. her, original degree. In political science and government, and then went on for an ma in education policy and adult learning from the university of Maryland at college park.

Joe Miller: a career including marketing, I'm so happy to have you here on Titans of Transition. 

Sarah Andrus: Well, thank you, Joe. It's always fun to talk about how people make changes in their careers. So I'm delighted to be here today. 

Joe Miller: Why don't you unpack a little bit more about your background?

Joe Miller: and maybe if you would take a few minutes and talk about your own personal transition from your educational background, your industry background, how you became a career strategist. 

Sarah Andrus: Oh, sure. Absolutely. I think like most of us, I fell into my career path by accident. It just was a, a happy accident.

Sarah Andrus: I was in graduate school and, uh, I had the good fortune to have a job on campus, where they had me providing some, advising for adult students who were returning back to school either due to layoffs or coming out of the military. So I was younger than the vast majority of the people I was talking to.

Sarah Andrus: And I was so inspired by them. I was so inspired by their willingness and capacity to make change at different stages of their life. And I think that stuck with me. And while I continued to stay in academia for a few years and went on to help people find internships and jobs. No things of that nature. I had this curiosity about the business world and I thought, well, you know, I'm not sure academia's for me.

Sarah Andrus: And I'd like to try something else while I can. And I had been inspired by these students that I had been working with who had made changes in their lives. So I thought, why not? Let's give it a shot. And the obvious transition for me was to move into recruiting. Because it was so closely related to what I already knew.

Sarah Andrus: And I was really lucky to find an opportunity with a company where I was able to help them grow their recruiting program as well as eventually build a team of my own and become one of the more senior executives so that I got to understand how the recruiting process fit into the larger goals of the organization.

Sarah Andrus: And this really meant over time that, I, kind of sat on all sides of the recruiting equation. I've been a career counselor, I've been a recruiter, I've been a hiring manager. So when the biggest transition of my career came up, which was a layoff in 2014, I thought this is a great chance to test, my intentions, I guess you'd say this was a great time.

Sarah Andrus: Test my intentions of becoming an entrepreneur, because if I didn't do it, then the time was getting a bit short to do it. So, I started Avarah Careers. We do career coaching as well as a consultanting on staffing. And as you said in the opening, we try to help people make bold career moves. and of course now in the time we're living in right now of the great resignation and the impact of the pandemic. People are really, looking to make sure they have a good career fit. And I love helping them with that. 

Joe Miller: I could interrupt there. There's a couple of things that I just, I wanted to swing back to. First of all, you used the word bold career [00:05:00] moves, right?

Joe Miller: So I'm just kind of curious why the word bold. 

Sarah Andrus: It's very strategic on my part because the fact is that there's a cycle that most of us go through when we are thinking about a job, change, something triggers us, something annoys us, something doesn't feel right, or we see an opportunity and we think I want to go for that.

Sarah Andrus: And there's a lot of energy and boldness in that. So we immediately might take out. But usually we're not taking the best action. And what happens is then the fear set in and we stall. And this becomes a cycle something else triggers us. Oh, it's time to make a move. Let's let's try again.

Sarah Andrus: So the boldness that I think, I help people with is to avoid the stall, to avoid the. Or to, if not avoid it, at least work through it, understand it's coming and develop some tactics for dealing with it so that you can achieve that bold move that your best self really knows you're capable of. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. It's really interesting because I think the people I've talked to over the years, coaching, and also most recently doing this podcast, it's clear that, uh, just what you were illustrating there, that there's this fear coming.

Joe Miller: On one hand they're being pulled forward by, something. You know, maybe, maybe there's friction, maybe there's something that's really nudging them to get out of their comfort zone, the status quo. And you know, that we all can get stalled into that status quo, the safety zone, it's biological, all that stuff. But there is a chasm, you know, crossing the chasm was at the title of a book and business. And it's a different kind of chasm, but from a personal level, there is a chasm there. And we see the other side metaphorically. We want to get over there, but that fear just keeps us stuck. And so a lot of the conversations I have, and I'm, I'm sure you, you have this too. People are asking to be transported to the other side without having to take that risk without having to be bold.

Joe Miller: And that's why I think I connected with that bold word. 

Sarah Andrus: Yes. I think I call that magical thinking.

Sarah Andrus: we have the dream, we have the thought. And so then we kind of don't recognize that action on our part is required. No fairy godmother is going, gonna pop out at the sky and grant you your wish of the dream job. It really does take some intentional, targeting and consideration and. reflection on what you have to offer and what what's going to be a good fit for you.

Joe Miller: Essentially you're coaching people through this process. You're giving them advice obviously in direction, but you're coaching them through this process. Do you see there being some kind of a tipping point that you recognize when they're ready to make that bold move or do you ask them to take small steps?

Joe Miller: I'm just wondering what your strategy is there.

Sarah Andrus: Yeah, it's very much of a beginning with what we control, which is ourselves. And that helps take some of the fear of. Because most of our fear is of what we don't control and what we don't know. And if we begin with ourselves and we get a really clear picture of what we want, and I do take people through exercises to help figure out, well, what's going to be the best environment for you.

Sarah Andrus: Where are you going to thrive? What's the management style that you're going to really do well with or what values of an organization are important to you. So we can go through that. And then I really recommend a proactive approach and that means targeting specific employers that you're interested in rather than taking the passive step of putting your career in somebody else's hands by just clicking apply on a job board.

Sarah Andrus: So it's about getting to know yourself well, and then practicing how you want to talk about yourself and how do you want to present yourself? Uh, confidence can be built with practice. And I know this from teaching at the university of Delaware, I teach undergrads and one of the classes is on public speaking.

Sarah Andrus: And of course we all know public speaking is a big fear. Well, what is a job search if not public speaking over and over and over again, and volunteering for rejection in an environment that's fraught with obstacles. That's why I say bold because it requires boldness to land well, and the other great news is it's absolutely a skill you can aquire.

Sarah Andrus: Just requires some practice and some guidance and coaching can help you go a lot faster. [00:10:00]

Joe Miller: Yeah. And I like, the sequencing too, because you do work first to get the person in touch with what they really want to do. And that then directs their marketing actions of themselves versus a reactive passive kind of approach.

Joe Miller: Put themselves into a pool of a billion other people where they go through the traditional recruiting path and talking to people that don't even understand the job that well at first. 

Sarah Andrus: The other thing we can do by focusing on what we want. The people who are looking to make these kinds of transitions have a portfolio of knowledge, skills, and abilities, and it's worth considering where do I want to invest that portfolio?

Sarah Andrus: And the typical question in a job search that most of us, you know, intuitively might ask is, well, they hire me. And the better question is, do I want to work here? And that gives the energy to overcome the fear.

Joe Miller: That's great. So, so that really is what pulls them across the chasm and overcomes the fear. If you think about, you know, fear of being at a love certain level, if they have enough to pull them across on the positive side, then it will tip and the'll go in that direction. I like that. And if they're just doing the passive approach, the more traditional approach, a finding a job by posting their resume on a job board and or even going through an application online process, they're already in a, sort of a negative energy state. I don't know if that's the right way of putting it. 

Sarah Andrus: Not only that, but statistically they're putting themselves at a distinct disadvantage because we know the most current research is that there are 250 to 300 applicants for every job.

Sarah Andrus: All those aren't very good odds. Uh, and we also know that only 20% of job openings for professionals are current. Advertised on a paid job boards like indeed or LinkedIn or Glassdoor. So by taking the targeted employer approach, and by knowing what you have to offer, you are able to get at that 80% of the jobs that you won't find on a publicly paid job board.

Joe Miller: Such good advice. Are there specific examples you could share with us of clients that you have taken through this kind of transition? Obviously there's a confidentiality issue there, but I'm just thinking maybe a way of underscoring some of the things you're teaching us today. 

Sarah Andrus: Yeah, absolutely. The client who comes immediately to mind is a very accomplished senior executive for a tech company whose name you would recognize.

Sarah Andrus: And he, had a, an opportunity to take a, retirement package. So many people are coming to me who have an opportunity to take a retirement package. Yeah. How about that?

Sarah Andrus: So when he came to me, he said I'm not ready to retire. I would really think about what I wanted to do. I want to think about what I want to do that can have all this expertise that I've gained over the course of my career. How can I have an impact on the world? I don't need to contribute to any company's bottom line anymore.

Sarah Andrus: I want to really think about what's important to me and where the skills that I have in my experience are going to, uh, have the greatest impact. And so we worked together and interestingly, I encouraged him to simultaneously continued, who apply to jobs at organizations he was looking at while he was also exploring this business idea that he had.

Sarah Andrus: And the reason why you want to do both is to actually compare how do I feel when I'm in this interview? How do I respond to the type of opportunity that they're presenting me? And he was very fortunate to be a incredibly accomplished, really well-educated very well connected guy. So he was getting interviews for big positions and I would talk to him after each interview and say, well, you know, what's the temperature? How did you feel about that? And with each one, he said, not as good as I feel about trying this idea that I have. So what that allowed 

Joe Miller: A validation. Yeah. 

Sarah Andrus: Well, and it's again, getting to know ourselves where, where is that energy and enthusiasm?

Sarah Andrus: And what he found was that even though going out on his own was going to be a bigger risk. It had a greater reward and he's doing really well and his business is thriving. Yeah. 

Joe Miller: That's awesome. How long of a [00:15:00] period of a time where you engaged with him? I'm just kind 

Joe Miller: of curious.

Sarah Andrus: In this case, it was about three months.

Sarah Andrus: So not that long. 

Joe Miller: Yeah.

Sarah Andrus: I mean, once you make a decision to really do this. It can go pretty quickly and, and you set the pace. I think the other important piece here is who are you talking to? Because there's no need to kind of reinvent the wheel. There are people who've gone before us and made all kinds of transitions, whether it's starting a business or going to a different industry or navigating the networking challenges.

Sarah Andrus: And again, that's a learned skill. You can talk to people and find out what they did and, you know, a very under utilized, resource is actually job boards for research, instead of job boards for you know, do I qualify for that job, which is a process of self elimination. How about looking at this and saying, huh?

Sarah Andrus: I wonder who's hiring in this industry?

Sarah Andrus: And then talking to people at those organizations, 

Joe Miller: Using it as a way of clarifying what you really want and sort of the opportunity side to the hiring site, the trends. That was a powerful example, by the way, um, in a couple of different ways, this gentleman very accomplished sort of in the seasoned part of his life, He still needed to think this stuff through and get clarity, and once he did, he was successful and has been successful after he made this transition. So I think that can be very encouraging to folks who maybe are earlier stages in their career, knowing that it's still a process.

Sarah Andrus: I think doing the research and looking at the opportunities actually gives us a foundation for a bold move. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. Yeah. You know, for me in, and I think we chatted about this a little bit offline about how a career can be a zig-zaggy kind of path, which was certainly my, uh, my situation. Um, I was in a technology leadership role for decades and I did okay in it, I think I did pretty well. But it didn't really light me up to be honest. I've found out that it wasn't so much the technology that I got me excited. It was leading change, but it was really the aspect of leading change around people and really more about change in people. So coaching is what really got me, to make a move away from that safe career.

Joe Miller: You know, once you get used to a profitable career choice, um, it's hard to walk away from that even though that might not be, you know, your best spot.,

Sarah Andrus: I like to speak to the word you raised of safe because there is no more safety and say the safety is an illusion we create for ourselves.

Sarah Andrus: But in many ways, and certainly with my own transition to owning a business, it was a very conscious decision not to put my career in anybody else's hands again. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, we, as human beings, uh, we tend to overestimate risk and, uh, we tend to underestimate our capacity to handle difficulty.

Sarah Andrus: So if you know that going in. Uh, and you look at things as they are not, as we wish they would be. You realize that that perceived safety of the corporate role is just that it's, it's perceived. And certainly in the last 18 months to two years, that's become abundantly clear. 

Joe Miller: Oh man. Yeah. But it's, it's always been that way, but it's become more clear to everyone.

Joe Miller: I've talked to a number of people who have had change thrust upon them. And to a certain degree, a lot of these changes were, uh, external because of the pandemic and companies needing to reshift, but a lot, a number of them weren't. You know, they were completely caught off guard and, found that the position had been {reworked} rechanged or all of a sudden they were out.

Joe Miller: And I love the clarification of perception. And that was w was what I was really trying to drive at. And that was my perception at the time. But yes, that, that was a perception that is a perception of safety and that's no longer true, you know, uh, being a little older. I grew up in a time when a lot of my parents friends, my parents were in positions where they would have a position with an employer that, or last their entire lifetime.

Joe Miller: That's very rare now. 

Sarah Andrus: Not [00:20:00] only is it rare, but it's actually undesirable. So we know that now there is a bias against people who have stayed with the same organization for whatever the recruiter thinks is too long, whatever that is. We also know that, um, today's graduates are gonna probably have four different jobs before their 30th birthday.

Joe Miller: Yeah, so true. So true. 

Sarah Andrus: So if we know that and we prepare ourselves for that, and we begin to think about our careers differently, then it actually can be an adventure and you can look at your career more as what skill set do I want to develop next? Or who do I want to work with next? Or what type of work and what kind of industry am I curious about?

Sarah Andrus: It's really hard to give up that, um, stability that we all naturally want. And at the same time, um, by looking at it as it is rather than as we might wish it would be, we're really becoming far more resilient and agile in a job market that's going to change whether we want it to or not. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. And, and sort of the long arc of, of a career, uh, I love the framing. I usually phrase it this way, the world, as it is versus the world as I'd like it to be. But, um, but this whole idea of pacivity also translates into how you approach your career. Just from a generic standpoint, starting out. Are you gonna, are you gonna just wait for things to come to you?

Joe Miller: You know, why haven't I been promoted? Why aren't I moving things moving faster rather than owning it and having a vision? The direction you want to go in, where you want to work, what, what do you want to do? Is it serving you? Do you need to make a shift? All those things are, are active and proactive versus the passivity of sitting back.

Joe Miller: And that can happen over a long arc. You know, in my case, good things were happening frequently enough, not the bad things didn't happen, but frequently enough that I said, um, I'm just going to hang with this, but I wasn't being proactive about really digging into what really was best for me. What really connected strongly with my gifts.

Joe Miller: I was more opportunistic. 

Sarah Andrus: I was the same way. And I think that came out of, you know, the environment in which we grew up in, where that was just what was expected. Be grateful. You have a good job, you're getting promotions or what have you. And it didn't occur to me for a long time. I didn't realize for a long time that I had as much control as I did over my career.

Sarah Andrus: And then it took me a few more years to decide to exercise that control.

Joe Miller: Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, let's talk about, lessons learned kind of in a broad sense, both from your career, but also from, the perspective of dealing with your clients. Do you see certain trends in interacting with your clients that come up often, that you tend to address in this similar way with your clients that may not be visible to them?

Joe Miller: I mean, we've, we've touched on some of these obviously, but, I'm kind of pivoting a little bit here and trying to pull out some lessons learned that we might be able to share with the listeners. 

Sarah Andrus: Absolutely. There's a few things that come to mind, Joe. Uh, the first is that we need to have fluency in the language of us. In how we want to talk about ourselves and what we bring to the table and we need to practice that.

Sarah Andrus: So that is one theme, no matter who I'm working with, even if they are a very confident, accomplished person, they have probably not practiced speaking about themselves and their high point achievements in a way that make their skills obvious. In fact, often I'll find that the more accomplished the person, the less practice they are and the more assumptions they make that their job title or where they went to school or certain achievements should say everything that needs to be said about them.

Sarah Andrus: Well, that's not true. Not by a long shot. A good hiring manager today wants to be able, to hear you articulate what you offer, not so they have to guess at it. 

Sarah Andrus: So, it's really common, especially for people who are very accomplished and they've, achieved a great deal in their career that they, they take it for granted, that people will understand from a job title or from, uh, you know, their stature or what have you, that, that we know what their skills.

Sarah Andrus: But that's actually not the case and [00:25:00] the best way to present ourselves, especially if we're looking, uh, for a new role is to have some high point stories that illustrate our skills because hiring managers don't want to have to do the work. They want you to do the work for them. They want you to be able to tell them why you're the solution to their problem, and to be able to do that very clearly.

Sarah Andrus: Demonstrates that you understand the role and what it's going to take. And that really makes the difference between a candidate who gets the offer and the one who doesn't at any level. Um, it's that understanding? What is this role all about, which means doing your research, which means talking to people in the company, which means knowing what the organization's challenges are, what that department's challenges are. Frequently I'll suggest to clients that in the interview, they ask a question like, what will success look like in the first three to six months?

Sarah Andrus: And another great question is what's keeping you up at night? 

Joe Miller: Yeah. Now is that that's typically, what's keeping you up at night, success look like, are those questions that would be in second round, third round interviews where you're talking to the hiring managers.

Sarah Andrus: Yes because you're talking to the hiring manager, you already know you're qualified for the job.

Sarah Andrus: And now you have to establish yourself as the best fit for the job. And the thing I like about those kinds of questions, and also the technique of pivoting in your answer. And I'll get back to that in a minute. The thing I like about these questions is they stimulate conversation. The candidate who's going to get the job as the candidate who builds rapport and has an easy communication with the person they're talking to.

Sarah Andrus: If you've gotten the interview, you already meet the basic qualifications for the job. And now your job is to show you understand what it's going to take, and you're already thinking about it and seeing yourself in the role. So you might say a pivot might be if I asked you a question, like, um, you know, tell, tell me about a time when you had to face some barriers to taking an action that you knew was the right thing to do.

Sarah Andrus: All right. That might be a typical high level question that you would get, for a senior role, you know, can you stand up to the naysayers? 

Joe Miller: Right. 

Sarah Andrus: And not only do you want a story for that, which is really important to talk about when you've done that before, but you also want to be able to pivot from that and say, I'm really curious, tell me about who the naysayers are here, not by name, of course, but what might be the common reasons why we might get pushback on or why you might get pushback on what your objectives are. And now you get the hiring manager talking. 

Joe Miller: Yes, having been on both sides of the fence and also, uh, this crosses over into questions that often get in a coaching context. You're not into round two or three, unless you've gotten past the tick boxes. Do they have all the basic requirements? And I think people go into round two and three, trying to underscore and highlight that they are meeting those tick boxes.

Joe Miller: It's like a sales thing where, you know, you often have to describe to people that sales aren't closed based upon this part, your head they're closed based upon this part. Your heart. They're closed based upon that connection you make an, and this is where it crosses over into sort of the coaching context. For me, as I often have conversations with people saying, I just, I have such a terrible time with my boss.

Joe Miller: I said, well, tell me about your conversations with your boss. And they're like, well, you know, I go in there and they don't, they're not paying attention to what I'm doing and they don't seem to care. And I said, and I'll say, Have you put yourself in your boss' position, what do they need from you? How can you make their life easier?

Joe Miller: Why are you there? And it's understandable that people, they want feedback. They want to feel like their bosses are engaged, but you don't have a positive relationship where you can have a dialogue and influence with your boss or a senior executive. Let's say, for example, Unless you've built a relationship where you have delivered for them and for the company.

Joe Miller: And, so I like this pivot point, uh, advice you're giving, because it demonstrates that you are putting yourself in the [00:30:00] position that you will be in, and that is serving your boss. Sorry, it's not going to go well for you, even if you get the position, unless you get that. There is a subconscious thing that goes on, I think, as part of the sales process of yourself, but also, the hiring manager is saying.

Joe Miller: Do I want that deal with this person on a daily basis, 

Sarah Andrus: right? And that's the value of the pivot. And you can do this with this pivot, with all kinds of questions, any question you get, you could say, tell me about how that works here or what's been your experience with that. And the value of that approach is you are establishing a relationship rather than just answering questions.

Joe Miller: And they're getting to see you in the light of being their person. Right. 

Sarah Andrus: And asking thoughtful questions and showing your thought process. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. And you know, yeah. The thing too is the whole authentic situation. Right. Is the person being authentic with you? Are they just giving you the pat answer back?

Joe Miller: Is there any substance? And I think, when you ask these thoughtful questions, you see the substance, otherwise it's just like a talking point. 

Sarah Andrus: That's right. That's right. And you really can't fake the exchange? 

Joe Miller: No, I think the other part too. And you touched on it earlier. Is this a company I want to work for?

Joe Miller: Is this a person I want to work for? And so you're also by asking these questions, you're getting a sense, is this a situation I want to be in? And it takes a lot of courage. But it's a smart thing to do to go into an interview. You have any, if you build your hopes up for that position and say, oh, I don't think so.

Joe Miller: Even if they offer me this job, I'm seeing things. I don't like the culture or I'm not seeing myself in this role. 

Sarah Andrus: Well and I think you're absolutely right show and we can also help preclude those situations. Doing the networking ahead of time, talking with people who already work there asking them, Hey, I'm curious.

Sarah Andrus: What do you like best about, the organization and what do you wish you knew before you started working there? We can ask for all kinds of insight when it is the informational interview. I'm doing my research. This is what I advise my clients all the time is they don't wait until you're, desperate to find a job you should be, working on your career resilience at least once a year, reaching out to contacts, looking at other organizations, asking yourself is this situation I'm in healthy right now?

Sarah Andrus: Do I have continued opportunities to grow. And in that process, reaching out to people and saying, who else is doing exciting work out there that I might want to be a part of. It's all research. And if you approach it as research in these networking conversations, I could say to you, Joe, Hey, you worked for that company for a number of years.

Sarah Andrus: What do you think somebody coming into the company should know? Or I see you worked with that particular hiring manager. What was your experience with that person or what's that person's reputation? That you always have to take that with a grain of salt, but it's good information to start with. And there's also reviews and feedback you can find on the internet. Now nobody goes on the internet or a board like glassdoor.com. Just, you know, say great stuff. Rarely, rarely, but repeated negative things that have the same theme. We can save ourselves a lot of trouble by not even looking at those organizations. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Joe Miller: So, can we go back and summarize some of these points, these pieces of advice. 

Sarah Andrus: So if I were to put together, what I think somebody who's looking at a career transition should be doing it follows a very predictable pattern.

Sarah Andrus: You should really start with what's in your control and know yourself. Have a very clear idea of what skills, not just what you are good at, but what you actually enjoy because many of us are good at things we don't particularly like. So what are you good at? What do you enjoy? What do you want to be doing on a daily basis?

Sarah Andrus: And then getting very clear targeting employers that hire people to do those things. And then the process of doing the research, talking to people who are already with that company. That actually is a great foundation for applying. We never want to apply for a job by just clicking the button on a job board. You want somebody on the other end to be expecting your application.

Sarah Andrus: Ideally you want somebody to be referring you, and that means putting some time into [00:35:00] building relationships. It doesn't take a long time. But it takes some intention and LinkedIn is a great resource for, meeting those people. And then in the interview process, really being your authentic self and making it a two way conversation so that, you can find out if that's the job you want, if that's the person you want to be reporting to and if that's the team you'd like to be a part of. 

Joe Miller: Yeah, that's great. Great summary. I don't think I got it done that off the top of my head, but I guess you've been doing this for a while. 

Sarah Andrus: Well, yeah, I know I was bouncing around a little bit there. 

Joe Miller: No, it was great. I just did it for my own purposes and for the audience. Let me, ask you, this canned question, you probably are expecting So if you were to give yourself advice as your 25 year old self from your own personal point of view, obviously you love what you do and you're in the right spot and you're doing great at it. But thinking back to when you started out, what would you say to yourself? Now, this could obviously be different than what you just summarized for us.

Sarah Andrus: So if I think about what I would say to my 25 year old self. I would say be bold. And I think, you know, just to come back to where we started, I was too timid. I, didn't have enough confidence in my own abilities, despite the fact that I routinely got exemplary, performance reviews. I would say that I could make a move, even if it felt uncomfortable or a stretch and the more practice I got with that stretch, I think the more rewarding my, roles might have been over the years because another skill is the stretch. And I wished I had done a little bit more of that. Of course, that's 2020, but I will also say this, that whatever decision you make, you can make it the right decision.

Sarah Andrus: And I think that I, did the very best that I could with the information that I had at the time. And I give myself a lot of credit for that too. 

Joe Miller: That's awesome. That's awesome. Sarah, how can people reach you? I'm sure the people who are still listening are wondering, ah, I need to talk to Sarah.

Joe Miller: So what's the best way for them to get ahold of you? 

Sarah Andrus: Absolutely. Well, the best way. Uh, my email, which is sarah@avarahcareers.com. And I'll spell that A V A R A H careers, C A R E E R S.com. Email me directly. I'd love to hear from you. You can also check out my website at, avarahcareers.com and I'd love it if you'll follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, there I am Sarah with an H, S A R A H B as in boy, Andrus,A N D R U S. 

Joe Miller: That's awesome. I will, of course, put these references in the show notes, to make it a little bit easier on you guys and, boy Sarah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you.

Joe Miller: I wish I had talked to you when I was 25 years old. 

Sarah Andrus: Well, thank you for the opportunity. Joe has been a pleasure and a fun conversation. I appreciate it. 

Joe Miller: Okay, guys, make sure you check out Sarah's site and do reach out to her if you, want to avail yourself of her services.

Joe Miller: And, I would also say she does have some TEDx talks up there. So you might want to check that out as well.