David Brown: Anybody who can run on two broken legs and a pulled groin for four miles, you get the Another shot at this. I waited eight weeks and started over. And this time I finished. There's a lot to unpack in that story. And there goes into great detail in the book. And one particular story that actually changed my life.

Every, everybody who goes through buds has a life changing moment. There's some time in there that they're not everybody's strong at everything. It's either swimming, running, obstacle course, whatever it is, you have to get over that thing that is holding you back. And mine was.

Joe Miller: David Brown, welcome to Titans of Transition you just came out with a very interesting book. Why don't we start there, David?

Tell us about the book that you just published, And Goliath, 

David Brown:Thanks so much, Joe. It's a really pleasure to be here today and talk about a whole bunch of different things. We're going to start with the book and Goliath. It's a memoir, so it's about me. I get that question so many times. What's your book about? And it's odd to say, it's about me. but the way it came about was, I had retired from the federal government, after 28 years in law enforcement, and I was also a Navy SEAL for 7 years, and I had a lot of stories to tell.

It seemed like people were interested in my stories. I was questioning my own existence at the time. I was transitioning from being super active special agent and the federal executive into being a retired person. And I was unsettled. I couldn't. understand why I couldn't go fishing and relax like everyone else who was going into retirement.

And so, I didn't, since I'm a federal agent and investigator, I started investigating myself and I put my stories together and I tried to answer the question, why am I the person that I am? And how did I become this way? And that ended up being the book and It's very cathartic for me to write these things down, get personal with myself and with people, the readers.

And I think people are relating to the story. It's, 

Joe Miller: Yeah, that's pretty powerful. when you unpack your life story like that, and I think a lot of people go through that kind of, introspection. it's interesting that you went and utilize your investigative, practices to dig in and to find out what was going on inside. 

Joe Miller: I think that it's quite interesting how you became a SEAL and how you went from that into, being a special investigator, special agent, I should say. Sorry about that. and you had some challenges going through that process as well.

So, I think that might have informed part of your book.

David Brown: and I think that's what resonates with so many people is that my, my journey to becoming a Navy SEAL and beyond, was very different than I would say most people. This, the title and Goliath is, implies my name is David. So, it is a David and Goliath story, not just in, me tackling the giant, but I am small.

I'm a small person. when I went into the Navy, I was 110 pounds, and I was five foot three. and not typically what you would picture as the Navy SEAL package. before I went into the Navy, I went to the Navy recruiter and said, this is what I want to do. And of course, he said, there's no way you're going to be able to do that.

You're too small. And so, people reading this story are like, wow, I remember when these people doubted me and pretty much people doubted me my whole life, mostly because of my size. But what they didn't understand was what was inside, not what I look like from the outside.

Joe Miller: Right.

David Brown: so, when I got to, bootcamp and, passed the Navy SEAL screening test, the only one in bootcamp to do it.

And then I surprised a lot of people. And then I got to what's called BUDS, basic underwater demolitions. Seal training. As I was checking in, the guy at the desk looked down at me and he said, can I help you? And I told him my name and he said, oh, you're AWOL, absent without leave. you're going to jail, buddy.

And I was like, what? How could that be? I'm three weeks early. and he said, you're Dave Brown reporting in for special boat unit, aren't you? I said, no, I'm here for seal training. And he looked, he cocked his head, and he laughed. He said, no, it can't be. There's no way you're never going to make it.

All these guys are really big and muscular and, you're not. and that began my journey in Coronado, California to become a Navy SEAL. And it took me two classes, a lot of injury, two broken legs to get through training. And, and, but I did make it. And it’s a story in and of itself.

I don't know how much you want to go into that story, but I can certainly talk about that if you'd like. 

Joe Miller: Yeah. why don't we, why don't we swing

back to that,

 and stay at the 50, 000-foot level, because, you were in SEALS, you said for, seven

years, is that right? Yeah. And then how did you transition into becoming a special agent. 

That's an interesting

transition. 

David Brown: and a very interesting story as well, as in 1987, when I was in the Navy. We weren't at war with anyone, and so there wasn't really much going on. So as being a Navy SEAL means you practice to go to war when you're not at war. And. We were, I spent a lot of time overseas traveling and, I would, I don't want to say practicing, but basically pretending to be a warrior, jumping out of airplanes, blowing things up, riding on submarines.

And it came to a point where I didn't see me being able to use the skills I was trained to do. my personality is such that I need a challenge and it's hard to say, but SEAL team was no longer a challenge for me. And so, I got my degree, and I decided I was, instead of being Jacques Cousteau of the machine gun, 

I was going to carry a gun and wear a suit. In my next career, and that's so I went to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and applied for them and, almost within the next 10 days, I had an acceptance letter and an offer to go to Federal Law Enforcement Training Academy. And that's how I started 

my federal agent career and, I spent, 7 years with the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

And again, I had that feeling that restlessness. I think a lot of people in their careers, they, like, where do I go from here? Once they feel that they've peaked and, the job work I was doing with NCIS wasn't as exciting as I wanted it to be. And so, I looked into the Environmental Protection Agency, which was the flavor of the month for crime at the time and they were.

That ended up being probably my most exciting special agent work that I did for the 28 years. 

Joe Miller: I never, certainly everyone's heard of NCIS with the popularity of the television program that went on for many seasons, but I never heard about, environmental protection. So, can you tell us a little bit about that, what the tie in was with that and NCIS?

David Brown: It is, shocking for people when I tell them I work for the Environmental Protection Agency, Criminal Investigation Division, and I did undercover work, and I bought and sold hazardous waste, and we did search warrants. No one ever Imagined that this was going on in the United States and at the level that we were doing, especially I was doing it, and so I was in St.

Louis, which I'm going to say this affectionately is one of the dirtiest cities in the country. 

As far as environmental goes, there's 

a lot of blue-collar industry. There's lead smelting, there's 

metal fabrication, there's, plating, chrome plating, 

and all these industries are extremely dirty and at the time, in the 1980s, the environmental laws were just really getting some teeth into them, and we were setting the example for the country.

My office was setting the example as to how to do these investigations and what I would say, environmental crime really was 1 of the most significant cases I did was against Burlington Northern Railroad Fortune 500 company who had polluted an entire county, ruined the lives of many people from poisoning them with lead by dumping it all over the county from their rail car cleaning facility and, That ended up being a big deal and set this again, set the standard as to how we were going to attack environmental crime for big industries.

EPA CID is a very small organization. At the time, it was only 120 special agents across the entire country. So, we had to. Be very selective as the investigations we worked and the prosecutions that we had, because they were the first ones to be done in the United States and they set a precedent. 

Joe Miller: Oh, that's really interesting. And there's a little bit of a crossover in a sense between us in that regard, because around that time, late 80s, early 90s, I was working for an environmental testing firm, a national, Chain of Laboratories, my backgrounds in science, although I was leading information technology at the time, but, doing a lot of low level testing and there was a real ramp up in the regulations.

And so that birth the whole industry in order to do the monitoring side, but the idea that companies would actually intentionally, dump waste were. Where they, they knew they shouldn't or that could happen was something that I guess we didn't really have the, as you said, awareness of at the time for sure. so that's fascinating, but it's another example where just to use your words in terms of your journey. You need to see a challenge. most people think to themselves, David, that, someone goes in and makes it through BUDs, becomes a SEAL, regardless of their size, that they have reached some kind of a pinnacle of achievement. But then if you add to that your size and that physical challenge that, that you had, that was over and above what many have, and we all know it's not just the physicality. It's also what's going on in here. it's what's inside, but then being in, the SEALs for 7 years, realizing that you really, I guess you really wanted to see action.

 you decided to make another shift and challenge yourself. And then after you were in NCIS for a period of time, the nature of their work wasn't again, I'm, extrapolating here, wasn't to the degree of challenge that really satisfied you.

So, then you stepped off and made another transition. I'm sensing a theme there that you want to make a difference. You want to challenge yourself and you want it to achieve more. Is that, am I reading that right?

David Brown: Absolutely right. And. My challenge in writing the book was to try to figure out why the heck am I like 

this? most people would, and a lot of my friends, even with the SEAL teams and the organizations I worked for, they were perfectly happy once they reached their goal, which maybe it was a SEAL, maybe it was a special agent in a particular organization.

They were satisfied. They rode out their entire career in that organization, doing that thing. And I never felt done. I 

didn't feel done. I had got the certificates. I graduated with the class. I achieved the prosecutions and still in my life, I felt like I wasn't successful, and I had to examine that.

Why the heck am I? Why do I feel like that? Even though by most people's standards, I was very successful, but it wasn't in my own mind. And that's where I had to go with the book is to examine why are people the way they are? And, you had pointed to the fact that I wasn't satisfied, and I needed let's just say the thrill of the action if, and it's true.

What do I found in doing my research and, and one of the psychologists that I was doing research on, as far as personality goes, he coined a phrase, Pathological Persistence, and I, 

Joe Miller: I haven't ever heard that

one before. 

David Brown: and, 

Joe Miller: good.

David Brown: I'm trying to think of his name, and I'll think of it in a second, but he, basically what he's saying, and he used an example of a man who was, his name was Doba, who was, a Swede.

And. Doba was persistent at what he was doing. He was so persistent that he decided he was going to kayak across the Atlantic Ocean, but it wasn't enough for Doba to do it once. He had to do it three times. And then you would think, that was the end of his life. He had paddled across the Atlantic three times, but he moved on to the next thing, which was kayaking.

Climbing Mount Kilimanjaro, and there he had a heart attack on top of the mountain. And so, what the psychologist, basically said was. And what Dova said was my life wasn't to paddle across the Atlantic. My life was to complete the next challenge, to complete the next phase of my life, never to rest and to move on to the next thing.

And that's fit my example, ideally, because that is the way I 

live. And that's the way what's pushed me through my life is, it's not that I, have a choice. I have to do these things. It's bred 

into me. It's genetic. 

Joe Miller: Got it. Yeah, it's interesting. And then you went, as we started this discussion, you then left that last job. And was it a retirement transition at that

David Brown: I went from EPA to the Department of Interior, Office of Inspector 

General, and I became this special agent in charge and, which was a completely, even though I was a special agent, now it was different because I was

managing an area of operations quarter of the planet from Guam to Alaska to Arizona to Montana to all the West Coast.

So, I asked for a challenge, and I got it.

Joe Miller: I, as you were talking about that pathological, what was it?

Pathological, 

David Brown: It

Joe Miller: I was reminded of a, a quote, the measure of a man is what stops him. And of course, him or her, it could be woman. I don't know who that would be attributed to, but I remember that in growing up hearing that a lot. And that kind of reminds me of this pathological persistence concept, that you're always looking for more of a challenge to, to test your measure, if you will, and not be afraid of something brand new. And even though you've, there was a common thread in these last few positions you held in investigations and being special agent type of mode. There was always something new that you hadn't done. And this last one sounded like it was a management role if I'm understanding 

David Brown: was a management role in an organization and a job description that was so diverse, it was hard to even put into words 

from investigating Native American tribes to, the political corruption in Guam or American Samoa and oil leases in Alaska and water theft. Water is gold in the West, water theft from the Bureau of Reclamation, in, it,

it was everything,

anything and everything. And so 

Joe Miller: literally.

the learning curve was great, and it was challenging. And I really loved that. I met president from the Federate States of Micronesia and sat as he chewed beetle nut spit into a can and, sat with, back to survival skills there.

David Brown: As I was negotiating, the ability for our special agents to carry our weapons in their country because they're free-associated states.

There's not even actually United States. there was that type of challenges that State Department would normally do and law enforcement and liaison. And it was so much fun. It was a lot of travel and. It was an amazing adventure, that I got to do something completely different on, in a topic that I knew a lot about.

Joe Miller: And so, what was there a next transition? I'm trying to figure out where the book came in.

David Brown: and by the way, I remembered his name. Robert Hill is the psychologist that wrote the article in Psychology Today, on, pathological persistence. And so there I was. I was in a career, and I was reaching the 35-year mark working for the federal government. And I just said that was enough. I was.

I didn't want to work for the federal government anymore. I wanted to do something completely different. And so, I retired, but some people would say I was crazy. I was a senior executive. I could travel freely. I was in charge of a program and an organization, communication. in charge of communication for an entire organization.

I shouldn't have walked away, but I did. It's better to walk away when you're on top, as the saying 

Joe Miller: Yeah, that's true. 

David Brown: so, I left, I retired and oddly enough, I started acting in community theater, which was completely opposite of anything I had,

Joe Miller: This is just amazing. you just, you get to a point, and I don't really, I don't know if the word boredom makes any sense, but it just, it gets to a point where I need a new challenge.

David Brown: it, it was. And. Believe I am an introvert. I'm not 

comfortable with going out in front of an audience, but it was something I needed to do. I think, people avoid those challenges. They're afraid of fear, the fear of failure, the fear of the 

unknown, and that's what stops people from going to the next level in their life or moving on to the next position is they're comfortable in where they are.

And for me, the uncomfortableness is a motivator for me, which is maybe it's odd to some people, but I get afraid. I get scared of things and I don't want to do it. One side of me says, don't do this because you've never done it before. And you may not feel it. You may not achieve what you're trying to do.

And the other side of me is saying, you have to do this. you have to go out and do something different. You won't be satisfied with your life until, unless you keep moving forward. Or maybe sideways sometimes, right?

Joe Miller: Yeah. Yeah. it's come up, I think I've done over 50 interviews since I started this channel. I've done some other episodes, but, and this is one of the things, the fear of failure has come up so often. And I'm not surprised by that, but people that I engaged with on this podcast, have often cited that as a key learning for them to make progress in their lives and to find fulfillment and to fully come into their own, if I can use that language, is looking at it and pushing through it. It's the old thing that people think courage is lack of fear. And that's not true, is it? it's just, it's like pushing yourself through the fear, in order to get beyond it to something better on the other side or to the outcome you need.

David Brown: Fear keeps you alive. It did when I was with SEAL team 

and being a special agent, you're cautious. That doesn't mean you 

don't progress and don't move forward. You always, the other thing SEAL team taught me was you. Complete the mission at all costs. And so, while everybody when you're getting ready to jump out of an airplane at night into the ocean, of course, if you, if anybody tells you they're not afraid, then they're lying because

Joe Miller: They're lying.

David Brown: everyone is afraid it to some level.

But the fact that you have the confidence in yourself, and you're going to come out the other 

side. That's. is what you're describing is, the ability to push through that fear, the courage.

Joe Miller: yeah, absolutely. So

 the, the typical question, and we don't have to end here, but it just seems like the natural place to ask it is, of course, we want everyone to read your book to get it and to read it because it's a fascinating story. And I think a real model. To folks on how to achieve more in their lives. but the other thing I, that I often ask is, what advice would you give yourself if you were to your younger self, or what lessons learned would you want others to really, take away from this conversation? And if they want deeper context and additional, of course, get the book, but how would you answer that question?

What are the key learnings and lessons that you would want others to, 

to hear? 

David Brown: I, for myself, and I think other people would feel the same way as the reviews on my book and people who've contacted me said, this is what they're taking away from it is that, achieve, success is defined, should be defined by your own self. I went for 34 years with the definition of sex success as everyone else looking at me and saying whether I did something or I didn't do something, Whether I got the certificate or whether I got the grade, and that's what left me at the end of my career in retirement, looking back, judging myself by everybody else.

And I think one of the 

key takeaways to the book is don't allow other people to judge you in your abilities. and you need to be the biggest judge of whether you can do something or whether you're successful. And that the other thing is for as much as hard work as you're going to do. And this is what I didn't do.

And this is why I was unsettled is I never stopped to smell the roses. I never once looked at the actual certificate or looked at myself or stopped and said, am I successful? 

And just be happy in the moment.

And I know that's getting philosophical to actually live in the moment. And I never did that. I was always chasing something.

And you can never be happy if you're constantly chasing something every single day. 

And so, If I have, if I could do it all again, when I graduated from Bud's, to be a SEAL, I would have got with my friends and we would have had a celebration, but I didn't do that. And when I became a special agent and achieve certain things, I would have taken my family on vacation or maybe gone to Disneyland or 

something.

And I didn't do that. 

And so, I led a life of constantly chasing what other people thought of me would be successful. 

So that's the key takeaway. And it was, it seems odd, based on what I just said, why I'm, why would a person who's done all these things, why would he said, why would he say, okay, you need to slow down instead of speeding up.

But that's my advice.

Joe Miller: Yeah, it being so driven. And I think in society today in a lot of, individuals’ lives, they are driven like that, and they don't take the time. And we've all heard stories of the fabulously successful, wealthy individuals that, are approaching their own death, looking back and said, I should have spent more time with my family.

I should have. I should have slowed down and smelled the roses to your point. So, but somehow, it's we hear those stories, but we tend to keep driving and pushing and, there is this, I believe there is this void or this gap and. The deepest part of people that they're trying to fill and unless they do the deep work like you have to try to have that inner conversation and try to really understand what's going on inside, you can get on autopilot and just a little bit on the hamster wheel.

I'm using so many metaphors here that. You don't take time and pretty soon decades have passed. And so that's just a great learning. Great reminder.

David Brown: Yeah. And we talk about the reasons I wrote the book, and I didn't even realize why or what the outcome of the book was going to be. I knew I had these stories to tell, and I needed to weave them together with a purpose. and that's really what it is all about. And when I was done with the book, I felt very satisfied that I could now.

engage and still take advantage of my personality, but at the same time enjoy the moment. And so, my life is much better now. I'm actually a happy person. I can, I don't know, a lot of people could say, are you happy? And you say, and they

truly say yes, but I can really say that this revelation. For me, and just a little change of perspective in life.

And so now I'm a very happy person.

Joe Miller: that's great. Yeah. being grateful for what you have and being grateful for, what you've experienced and your progress through, through this journey of life. gratitude is a big part of arriving at that state of happiness or joy or fulfillment, whatever word you want to use. 

I'm curious, you were talking, I'm going to swing back now, early in your journey about your size and how you dealt with that in your formative years growing up and going through, elementary and high school and things of that nature.

I'm wondering if you had challenges back then. I'm just, how did you get to the point of deciding you wanted to be a Navy SEAL to begin with? Because isn't that, I think that was in your mind when you enlisted and then maybe to begin with. So how did you come up with that? Because, and I know you're back to this idea of, pathological persistence, but that isn't a natural thing for someone who has a challenge.

That's not a natural goal for someone to come up with. You wouldn't think of that. So, I'm curious about that.

David Brown: It, I was always the smallest kid in class, usually smaller than the smallest girl in class. And there's a really important story that I tell in the book is when I was in third grade, I was being picked on just like today kids get picked on, right? I was being 

picked on by a big red-haired kid, Albert Kida, and he used to call me shorty pants.

And he used to push me and get to the back of the line. We always lined up by height, right? So, I was always the last one in line. And he would just say, get to the back of the line, shorty pants. And then after school, he would chase me down and push me. And I didn't know what to do. And so, I went home to my mom crying and my mother was an Irish.

woman who didn't take anything from anybody. And when she found out my story, she sat me on her lap and she put her hand up and she had me punch her hand, like punch. Hey, you're going to do this. Nobody's going to pick on my little boy. You're going to punch him right in the kisser if he does that again.

And I give you permission. And I smacked her hand, and I started to laugh, and I said, okay, I'm going to do this next day at school, Albert did the same thing, but this time I stood up to him in the alleyway. And I punched him right in the 

face and then he didn't do anything. He picked me up and he threw me against the garage door we went at it just once or twice more.

And he said, he put his hands down and he said, why are you hitting me? And I said, because you pick on me. And, he said, if I don't pick on you anymore, will you stop punching me? And I said, yeah. And we ended up becoming friends.

And this is one of those, this was one of the How to get through problems, how to be, how to move to the next level in your life, if you will, is to, it's.

It's not enough just to do what your boss says. You set us, you set your goals, right? Every year you go in, you do your evaluation 

and here's your goals. I was like, you could set those goals for me, but my goals are like way up here. You don't even have to tell me what your goals are because mine are going to be way better than those.

Joe Miller: life lessons for me.

David Brown: And number one. you got to stick up for yourself, even if it means, fighting. And, you don't have to fight. if we had talked it out, we wouldn't have had to throw any punches. And but what that did was that that didn't create a fighting, personality for me. It was in me. My mom just brought it out.

So, I had this kind of this, I'm going to fight my way through life kind of attitude. When I didn't even understand or realize it and moving forward when I was in high school, you know you can't win all the time. Sometimes you fail and I went out decided to play freshman football in high school and I was not 80 pounds 80 pounds 

going against 150 200-pound kids and I got demolished, right?

And so, within a couple of weeks, after riding my bike 14 miles to practice and from practice, I decided to quit. I quit football practice. And that was the most devastating event. second most devastating event up until that time. And I almost couldn't overcome it because my personality was telling me, why did you quit?

You let yourself down, you let your teammates down. And I got that feeling. 

that I never wanted to quit, and I never would quit again after that experience. And so, I, now I'm moving forward and I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life, almost. I'm a junior in high school.

I think I'm going to go to college to study marine biology. My mom says she's not paying for college. So, then I went to the military to start looking in the military and I wanted to do exciting stuff. I wanted to be Jacques Cousteau with a machine gun, actually I just wanted to be Jacques Cousteau at that time, but I'd love James Bond, and I'd loved Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Sea Hunt and all those great shows.

And so those are,

things that guided me and there I was in the Coast Guard recruiter, and I wanted to be a swimmer air rescue. Is what they told me. So, I said, okay, just put it down on paper that I'm going to go to this school, and they wouldn't do it. So, I walked down the hallway to the Navy and they, I went to the Navy recruiter, and I had no idea what UDT SEAL was, Underwater Demolition Team SEAL Team.

And I looked through the book, found the description, no idea. Literally, I did not know what a SEAL was at the time, but it described all the things that I always wanted to do when I was a kid. And I said, this is what I want to do. And like I said before, the recruiter said, no way, pick something you can do.

You can't do that. And I wouldn't let him dissuade me from going forward with that. I said, no, this is what I'm going to do. I went in the Navy. And, and I passed the test, and I went to Bud's to become a SEAL.

Joe Miller: Yeah. 

and, I think you said you; you broke your legs through the first round and then you went back to the second class and made it through. Is that correct?

David Brown: Yeah, one of the things you do in. When you're going through SEAL training is you run, and then you run more, and then after you run more than that. We were running a marathon a week in boots on pavement 

just to run to and from each meal. And then you have running on top of that.

within, I got there early, so I started running before most people, and then within 2 months, I had. Crack both of my shins and, stress fractures from just from running. It's, I don't want to say it's typical, but 

it does happen to guys. And so right before hell week, I don't know if you're familiar with hell week, but, 

two days before hell week, I failed a four-mile timed run because I had.

It was running on two broken 

legs and a pulled groin and, after I failed that, got tested, they told me what was wrong. The review board had me in their office and they said, anybody who can run on two broken legs and a pulled groin for four miles, you get another shot at this. 

so, I waited eight weeks and started over and this time I finished.

But there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack in that story, and there goes into 

great detail in the book and, 

one particular story that actually changed my life, every, everybody who goes through BUDS has a life changing moment. There's some time in there that, They're not everybody's strong at everything.

It's either swimming, running, obstacle course, whatever it is, you have to get over the, that thing that is the most, that is holding you back. And mine was running. And, I was, I kept failing runs and I was fall behind on all the conditioning runs. And I finally had to come to Jesus meeting with myself and, and whatever great power was under control at the time, I was falling behind on a run and I just told myself I was either going to catch up or I was going to die right there at that time.

It was going to, I was going to run until it killed me, literally,

Joe Miller: and I had an out of body experience. I ran, I don't even remember doing it, it was like I was looking down on myself, I ran, I caught up to everyone, and I never fell behind again, and 

David Brown: that is the moment in my life that I realized I could do anything.

Joe Miller: Yeah, it's interesting because I've heard other stories about people going through BUDs. It's like you said that they have something that they push through. That is very similar to that story. Of

 course, the circumstances are always different, but, but you had this secret sauce going into it that I think a lot of the people who get up and ring the bell that you would never think would ring the bell. just by looking at them on the outside, didn't have, and that is you, at a very early age, you discovered this pathological persistence, this, I will not quit, period, and I'm willing to go all the way, even to the point of death, and that last example. I'm just not going to quit. And that's probably, I would say from an outsider, way outsider, looking into these stories, something that seems to be a common thread to all of them is that people don't understand that these physical challenges, are one thing, but that's not really what they're looking for.

Ultimately are those physical attributes. They'll get you there. They'll condition you, but. You got to have that kind of heart and determination and pathological persistence to push through, or you'll never make it

David Brown: I'm going to take it one step further. And I don't know if other people have had this comment or suggestion, but it's not enough not to just quit. 

 not stopping the action that you're doing or the mental challenge, is not enough. You have to succeed. if I didn't run fast enough 

to

pass the timed run, if I didn't study enough to pass the test, not quitting doesn't mean you've succeeded. And 

so that's a whole another level of, okay, I'm not going to quit.

No, that's not enough. 

That's what I tell people. You have to be successful. You have to understand where the finish line is, and you've got to get across it in the time that's allotted. 

I think that's the way you really push through life. and when you look back, you get goosebumps about, wow, this is, I did all these things and that, if that's what 

excites you, that's what makes 

you the best person in the room, not 

the certificate, not the title,

Joe Miller: the other thing you said was you're the one who's doing the assessment. Yeah, there may be this outcome, but you've, you set that goal that you just said, beyond what the expectation was of your boss or whatever the situation may be. and ultimately, you're the one that's judging it. It's the competition against yourself, you have to not quit, but then there's this whole second level is you do need to succeed and then you're the one who measures what the success is. It's coming back to

where we started. 

David Brown: bingo, 

Joe Miller: Yeah, all right. Oh, that's gold.

Thank you. 

David Brown: this before

Joe Miller: I have bloody knees, so to speak. I've had some measure of success, but I think a lot of us struggle with these things because we haven't, it gets back to people get on sort of a treadmill in life. And, it really isn't the Woody Allen quote, all 98 percent of life is showing up is not really. True. it is true, but it's so low of a bar. It's ridiculous. cause you can show up and you can meet obligations, and you can be okay, but is that really the kind of life you want? And so, if we don't pay attention, we don't have awareness, we don't do the kind of introspection you're talking about and continually push ourselves forward, I think there's going to be a lot of regret when you get to the end.

David Brown: and you don't want to be on your deathbed when you have the realization. that I could have 

done so many other things. You want to be able to be there, and say, I've done so many things.

Joe Miller: And I think, at this point in the conversation, I'll slide in my little philosophy, which is basically that we're all gifted from God above and part of us reaching that fulfillment is making sure we understand what that gift is and to get it in action and have the kind of determination that we've been discussing. And to faithfully steward that gift. at the end of the day, we can say, well done. We did it, 

David Brown: I always say persistence and determination is perseverance, and that's putting it all together, and that's really. The goal for me 

is to persevere, is to get through it, and you need both of those things. You need determination, get rid of that fear, and you need persistence. You just, day after day, because when you wake up, let's face it, not everybody wakes up every day.

I don't. oh, I'm a 

hard charger, I'm going to be 100 percent today. But that's, it's not the every day. It's the persistence to push through that feeling where you don't feel like you're going to do it or be 100 percent that day. And the determination to do it for a long time.

Joe Miller: Yeah. 

Compounds over many days. This has been a great discussion. the last question would be, obviously the book is out, and I think when we talked before this call, you said it was doing really well on Amazon. so, congratulations on that. but looking forward, what are you looking to doing? Is there a new project that we should be looking out for all the listeners here or just get the book?

David Brown: no, that, that's a great question. and you pointed out as everyone else has pointed out when I've told my story about the EPA part, and there's so much unknown about that topic and the things that we did. Midnight Raids, and Hurricane, and Tornadoes, Warnings, and Undercover Operations. And so, my next book is going to be about that.

It's going to be about

the, a true crime type of thing. Although I'm going to change 

a little bit of the, I don't want to have to go through EPA and get permission to write it. the stories 

that I'm going to write, but I think people are going to be completely surprised and amazed at the, what is going on in the United States.

And it'll, there's a, it'll be a lot of fun stories to tell about the investigations that I did.

Joe Miller: That's awesome. David, thank you so much for being on Titans of Transition. I really appreciate it. if folks want to try to find you, what's the best place for them to

David Brown: Okay, I have a few. I have www.udtdave.com, which is a website dedicated to me. you can also sign up for. information about the book. The book is actually on Amazon and at andgoliathbook.com. And if you want to email me direct, you can email me to udtdave@gmail.com. And I get a lot of great people and great conversations and how they have appreciated the stories and how uplifting the story was and made them feel that much better and wanting to go out and do the thing that they said they were going to do and never did.

So 

it's been a great experience for me. I get goosebumps just thinking about the fact that its helping people move on and do things.

Joe Miller: That's awesome. that's so cool. All right. I'll put all that information in the show notes to make it easier for it for all of you

listening in. And once again, David, thanks again for being on

David Brown: Thank you for having me.

Joe Miller: Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of Transition. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please check the show notes for additional information.