Terre Short (00:00)
 Because it's a game changer. know, the issue is that we think just miraculously we're going to change that narrative. And I speak about changing the words, you know, not using the word can't. For as long as you believe you can't, you will be right. Right. And so changing words is one thing, but there needs to be sort of the impetus or the break or the
 
 something that activates the need for that change and that's the pivot practice.
 
 Joe Miller (00:25)
 Terre, so glad to connect with you on Titans of Transition,
 
 an executive coach and an author, you've written several books. one was words we choose. And the other one was what's love got to do with it? why don't you tell us a little bit about, especially as it, as it relates to where people are today and those executives that you're coaching.
 
 to move up in their career, to be successful in their career, maybe even in transition. Kind of unpack that a little bit. What are you hearing today and how does it tie into some of these books and concepts that you've been putting out there?
 
 Terre Short (00:58)
 Sure, you know, actually this one piece is a part of both books. So the Words We Choose, Your Guide to How and Why Words Matter, it actually starts with what I call now your personal podcast. I didn't call it that when I wrote the book, but then I did a lot of podcasts. And so think about that. You you have your earbuds on and your personal podcast is that narrative that's running 24 seven and you get to choose. You get to choose.
 
 Joe Miller (01:13)
 Ha
 
 Terre Short (01:22)
 the stories that are told, you get to choose who comes on, is it your mother-in-law at 3 a.m.? You're the director, the narrator, the host, everything, so I do, Joe, you would be surprised at how much coaching I do for helping people control that narrative and make that narrative what they want it to be and what they need it to be.
 
 Joe Miller (01:34)
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (01:44)
 So often the narrative loops over and over again related to stories that no longer serve them. Something from their past, a past employer, know, a past relative or what have you, right?
 
 Joe Miller (01:48)
 Mmm.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah, I think of that statement, get out of my head, right? mean, these soundtracks that keep playing in our heads, yeah.
 
 Terre Short (02:05)
 Right, and we can control that. So that's actually the first chapter of that first book. The second book isn't quite done. It's all very, very close, but it's called Leadership, What's Love Got to Do With It? Yeah, it's very, very close. And the reality is that to be a loving leader, you also need to have self-love. And self-love is relevant to that narrative. So if we're always beating ourselves up,
 
 Joe Miller (02:14)
 I knew it was close, yeah.
 
 Terre Short (02:29)
 We lack self-compassion. We're also then unable to show that to others. Why that's important is I coach so many executives right now that are wanting to be promoted within their organization or they're looking for an external position and that's a difficult thing right now in the job market. Well, imagine how much more difficult you're making it if that internal narrative is not serving you. And if you're really
 
 spending most of your time ruminating and catastrophizing over what you may or may not be able to do as opposed to leaning into your strengths and being very secure and certain about your accomplishments, the value that you bring and what you do do well.
 
 Joe Miller (03:13)
 Yeah, because that shows up, especially whether you want it to or not, whether you're even aware of it or not, it shows up. you know, all this discussions about being authentic and transparent, that people try to do that sort of as a mechanical tactic, but they're still not dealing with what's kind of under the surface. And so I guess part of the process has been with many of your clients, you're helping them to have awareness for that.
 
 Terre Short (03:41)
 Yeah, you know, I, in the past, maybe let's say at least two years, if not three, pretty much every client at some point when we start talking about the some of the some of the words that aren't serving them, some of the narratives that aren't serving them, I'll ask them, do you meditate? Do you have a mindfulness practice on a daily basis? And, you know,
 
 Some people receive that differently than others, but eventually, during the course of our time together, I believe just about everybody comes to see that some sort of mindfulness practice, stopping and really looking inward serves them really well. And that's the ticket, that's the key. That's like kind of what unlocks their ability to have more control over that narrative. Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (04:25)
 That's the unlock tactic. Yeah.
 
 That's cool. That's cool. take me into, give me some, if you can, give me some examples without obviously naming names of where that has been and real aha moment for one of your executive coachees.
 
 Terre Short (04:42)
 Sure,
 
 absolutely. I actually have recently had a executive that started out by telling me some issues that they had with another individual, like a peer, let's say. I don't want to give too much away. But anyway, they had an issue with how they interacted with a peer. And the stories that I was hearing
 
 really made me pause and think, well, wait a minute, this person is accepting the information that the peer is offering them and they're allowing it to denigrate them. The words that the peer is choosing is denigrating this individual's self-esteem, self-worth. And so we went into unpacking that. And the reality was this person didn't believe it for a minute. Like they were aware enough to say,
 
 it doesn't feel right and it's offensive to me. And yet the way that they were explaining to me very much was in a place of really not owning it initially. And so we started to talk about those word choices that the peer had and we peeled back the layers of what the individual really did believe about themselves. And so they were able to then
 
 Joe Miller (05:36)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (05:54)
 reiterate that over and over and stand in their own truth and stand in their own beliefs and then in essence stand up to what the conversation that needed to happen. then that everything changed. As a matter of fact, the person was promoted and it's all a beautiful story now, right?
 
 Joe Miller (06:12)
 That's really interesting because I think, you know, there is that there's this information coming in, in this case, I assume critical information being critical of the individual. But one of the key, I think, attributes of really successful executives, their ability to listen and evaluate and act on the things that they should act on if they're in agreement with it.
 
 Terre Short (06:37)
 Bye.
 
 Joe Miller (06:39)
 or get more information to make that assessment and then move forward with it as a positive thing. But what often happens, I think, is people, you have this head and hearts thing going on, right? So you have this part of your brain engaging with the information and saying, it's not true, but then the emotive part is betraying what,
 
 Terre Short (06:50)
 Yes.
 
 Joe Miller (07:02)
 the language that's coming out when you're, you know, it's not true. And this is the reason, oh, that sounds really good, but you don't really believe it because I can feel your, your emotion, you know, feeling, um, put down or, or, you know, I mean, it's, it's a ding on your confidence, you know, it's causing you to behave in other ways that betray what you're telling me. So is that part of what you meant by that dialogue?
 
 Terre Short (07:26)
 Right.
 
 Absolutely. And where it gets complicated is if the individual has this narrative or bits of the same narrative from the past, and then another individual, the peer in this circumstance, inserts more of the same, right? So I have no idea how I started seeing it this way. Well, actually I do. I took a neural mindfulness course and I was...
 
 Joe Miller (07:37)
 Yeah, it's reinforcing.
 
 Terre Short (07:52)
 really liked Joe, tell you, I really can geek out on the neuroscience behind all this. So I started visualizing, yeah, I love it. So I started visualizing that narrative being a spiral, a downward spiral, and it spirals down and down and down. And what I learned from the neuroscience is that at some point, the easy way, I call it the yellow brick road. The yellow brick road is the easy path then, and sometimes in neuroscience they speak about it as a record.
 
 Joe Miller (07:57)
 pathways. Yeah.
 
 Hmm.
 
 Terre Short (08:18)
 where you get in a groove and it goes around and around. For me, Yellow Brick Road, we know these bricks, we know this pathway and we follow it along because we always have. So what has to happen is that there needs to be a break, some sort of pivot, some sort of break as the spiraling thoughts and stories and narratives happening. There needs to be a physical break before you choose to go on the Yellow Brick Road or into the groove.
 
 Joe Miller (08:21)
 Yeah.
 
 comfort.
 
 Terre Short (08:44)
 And I call that a pivot practice. So I coach just about every client to choose a pivot practice. Can be as simple as, and you can do this with me, rubbing your index finger and your thumb together and feeling the ridges on them. Occasionally somebody will tell me I don't have any ridges, but just something as simple as that. I also like this, putting my hands together like this and doing something in a couple of deep breaths, maybe three deep breaths, less than a minute.
 
 Joe Miller (08:53)
 Yeah.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (09:10)
 doing something that is my activation. Yeah, my activation to say, spiral happening, not going on Yellow Brick Road. Yep, that's right. It's a literal timeout. And I take those few breaths to reset and to send myself on the upward spiral in the direction of what's in my heart and what I do believe and what does serve me well. So that's a very key practice that pretty much
 
 Joe Miller (09:13)
 Interrupt.
 
 Mm. Mm. Mm.
 
 Terre Short (09:37)
 everybody is subject to hearing about it. Because it's a game changer. know, the issue is that we think just miraculously we're going to change that narrative. And I speak about changing the words, you know, not using the word can't. For as long as you believe you can't, you will be right. Right. And so changing words is one thing, but there needs to be sort of the impetus or the break or the
 
 something that activates the need for that change and that's the pivot practice.
 
 Joe Miller (10:03)
 I like that. That's
 
 another great tip or tactic. And again, it's awareness and then it's putting that in place to get kind of on the right response or the right processed response. I maybe phrase it that way. I'm kind of, well, the other thing you made me think about is you mentioned that there can be messaging that we get in could reinforce messaging we've had in the past.
 
 Terre Short (10:17)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (10:28)
 and maybe deepen those record grooves, if you will. And I think that's also something that leaders need to be very aware of is not just be evaluating things in the moment as you are communicating to other people. It goes the other direction. So be mindful for and see if you see a response that seems inordinate to the information that you're giving.
 
 Terre Short (10:42)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (10:54)
 it could mean that there's been reinforced messaging or reinforcement going on, whether it's true or not. I'm just saying that sometimes we're a bit baffled by the response we get for people.
 
 Terre Short (11:03)
 Right.
 
 Right. And so that's wrapped up in the word choices, perhaps my word choices to that individual, but then also how they hear those words. So let's talk for a few minutes about those word choices. I out can't, right? And that's a stopper. And some of the other ones that people allow to be in their narrative and then they they squeak out in what they say to others, too. So if my narrative informs that I probably
 
 Joe Miller (11:13)
 need to be. Yeah, yeah. That's great.
 
 Terre Short (11:35)
 won't meet my goal or I might be able to do that, but not possibly. If that's how I'm talking to myself, then that's how I'm saying it to others. In other words, I'm not certain and I'm not owning it. And particularly when leaders do that, when leaders say, well, we might meet our Q4 goals. And I think to myself, okay, will you or won't you ‚Åì figure that out? Right. That's what we rely on the leaders to do. So abandoning
 
 Joe Miller (11:44)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Terre Short (12:02)
 those uncertain wishy-washy words and just abandoning them and owning what you believe to be true. I'm a big fan of that. And again, it starts internally. If I'm a little wishy-washy about my capabilities and my strengths, then that's how it's going to be portrayed when I speak as well. I'll give you a couple of pet peeve ones as well. When leaders say, I think, and or if they combine it all together and say, I think,
 
 maybe we'll probably be able to string all those uncertain words together. Makes me a bit crazy. But I always think to myself when a leader says, I think I'll be able to do that or what have you, what goes through my head, Joe, is that's why you make the big bucks. That's why you're the leader. Right. So let's be a little more certain. So I will. I intend to. Instead of I think.
 
 Joe Miller (12:43)
 Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (12:51)
 Sometimes leaders will say to me, well, Terre, I'm the top executive in the room. And in order to open up the dialogue and invite others in, if I say with quite, with a lot of certainty, this, that, or the other thing, then maybe I'll hold them up. So occasionally I use, think, to soften what I believe to be true. And I get that. I just would use that more cautiously.
 
 you know, sparingly and replace it maybe even with, my position is, or I believe such and such. that's way different to me than saying, I think. You're just, you know, you're just really unsure.
 
 Joe Miller (13:17)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah, right.
 
 Or given the information I have right now, this is my call, right? Which allows you to be, I think, honest about your assessment because there's another side to this where, you know, you're sort of over committing in a way. you know, thinking about it in an interviewing context, for example, or just normal interactions, but definitely in an interviewing context, confidence is huge.
 
 Terre Short (13:34)
 Right. Right.
 
 That's right.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (13:57)
 And
 
 especially for a leadership role, you're coming forth and having that all those passive words in place just completely erodes that you're the person, you know? And yeah, go ahead.
 
 Terre Short (14:08)
 That's right. That's right. And yeah,
 
 I was just going to say, I'm guessing with your in your own coaching practice in the last year, maybe two years, how often do you hear somebody say they want more executive presence? Is that a buzzword to you?
 
 Joe Miller (14:24)
 ‚Åì I
 
 am reshaping one of the two communities I have right now and moving it from sort of a hosted monthly meeting and breakout sessions on technology leadership topics. I basically said, no, this is like the director level one. saying, we are going to make this a group coaching mastermind kind of an offering.
 
 Terre Short (14:39)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (14:51)
 I would love to have you continue. But one of the topics I put in there was what I kept hearing from, which was executive presence. And they're like, this is great. I think of the you opened up the yellow brick road. So I'm going to give you another one from Mother Wizard of Oz. And that's at the very end when Glenda was going to send Dorothy back. Do you remember? mean, she said, well, you could have always gone back, but you wouldn't have believed it. Right. And so so there's
 
 Terre Short (15:14)
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (15:17)
 There's this disempowering aspect to this language piece too, right? Where they basically are taking themselves out of what they desire. So it's like, you want executive presence, you need to you need to act like an executive and you need to deal with any issues that you need to deal with to make sure that's an identity you can hold and live into.
 
 Terre Short (15:22)
 Right, that's right.
 
 Right?
 
 Joe Miller (15:44)
 And so anyway, there's a lot of disqualifying kind of language that happens. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (15:53)
 Right. That's right. Well,
 
 you made me think of that when you said confidence, that people want more confidence. And that's a big component of having executive presence, right? So there's the gravitas involved in it. There's communication, how you communicate verbally and non-verbally and such. And then there's your preparation. Those are three key components to having executive presence. All three of those build confidence.
 
 Joe Miller (15:57)
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (16:18)
 There's some research about confidence, how some of the preliminary confidence work in your life is done when you're a child, things that are said to you and such, but you can grow out of that. You can do the work to grow out. If said event in your childhood added a lack of confidence, you can grow out of it, right? In some cases, like for me, an example, I say this a lot. I say it in my book, I talk about it with clients.
 
 Joe Miller (16:38)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (16:45)
 And from the time I was maybe eight years old, my father told me I could do anything I wanted. And I believed him. So I had like that opposite. had the people ask me sometimes, well, how did you get so confident? And I go back to what started there, right? But all those other things, the gravitas meaning that I learned and I seek the knowledge and I want to go deeper into different topics. And then I want to be perpetually prepared. And I am a student of communication. So putting all those things together.
 
 continually adds to my confidence. There's no pixie dust or Glenda's magic wand. If there was, I would tap that wand on everybody to help them be more confident from the highest executives I coach into the people just starting out. But that's not the case, unfortunately. And so how can I help them? I can help them by thinking about the strengths that they do have.
 
 Joe Miller (17:14)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mm-hmm. Right.
 
 Terre Short (17:35)
 the value that they do bring, the words that they choose for themselves and when they're in conversation with others and choosing ones that are supportive and uplifting and yeah. So that's the Pixie Dust.
 
 Joe Miller (17:47)
 Yeah.
 
 Another point that, you know, I guess in your new book that you're almost done with, what's love got to do with it? So what does loving leadership look like in a high stakes corporate environment? And how does it help people navigate career transitions?
 
 Terre Short (17:49)
 Ahem.
 
 Yeah, that's it.
 
 That's an excellent question. So again, it starts with the self love. And when I say self love, mean, being very much in tune with your own values. It's striking how often I ask, I ask individuals, what are your top three values? And they go, you know, not so sure. Right. And so let's start there. And so what are my personal values and how are they aligned or are they aligned?
 
 Joe Miller (18:24)
 It's wild. Yeah.
 
 Aren't
 
 they?
 
 Terre Short (18:33)
 with the organization's values. And so that's kind of for me the place to start and the alignment there. And then if I'm a leader in an organization that let's say says, we're gonna downsize and we're laying people off, how do you do that in a loving way? And so the loving way is to share the information that you do have to connect at all times to connect what you're sharing to a value or the overall mission of the organization.
 
 and to do it in a considerate empathetic way. That's the loving way, even to do the most difficult of communications. There's a way that you're able to be empathetic and to be transparent, to be vulnerable in what you're sharing. Because, you know, so often the leader that's reviewing with me how to let people go or how to do something that's incredibly unpleasant for them.
 
 Joe Miller (19:23)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (19:26)
 They need to own it first and they need to feel into it and have self compassion for themselves and for the information that they need to share. And once they have a solid handle on that, then they're able to very in vulnerable way, very transparently share what needs to be shared and be empathetic in the doing of that. Right. So again, gets back to word choices, but all components of leadership and what made me write this book is that coach and day in and day out.
 
 how to have effective one-on-one meetings, how to own your calendar better and weave in your own wellbeing and lead from a place of prioritizing your own wellbeing. And so all these different things that I find myself coaching, executive presidents, know, what have you, all of those things can be approached. All of those leadership components can be approached from a loving place, from the loving place of oneself.
 
 Joe Miller (20:16)
 Hmm.
 
 Terre Short (20:17)
 and those that you serve. And so that's what the book's about.
 
 Joe Miller (20:20)
 That's, I can't wait to have it on my shelf. You maybe think of a personal example about when you're talking about letting people go. I I've had to go through mass layoffs and be the purveyor of the news, obviously. I'm thinking of one in particular at a company that I was at in Colorado. it was like 800,
 
 Terre Short (20:24)
 You
 
 Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (20:46)
 close to 900 people in the company. And I think they got down to less than a hundred in the, in the, in the first, first pass and, completely gutted my group. And we had three waves of layoffs where I was given this many people have to go wave one. Another week later, there was another one. Another week later, there was another one. And I remember on the, I think it was the second one.
 
 One of the people that worked for me was a woman and she was like, it was brutal because she was a great employee. I just, you know, and I use the sort of two hat conversation. I know if you've ever heard of that or not, but I basically said, OK, I have my boss hat on now. And I gave the information, communicated the information that she was being laid off and what the company was providing in terms of severance and things of that nature. And then I took the hat. I said, I'm taking my
 
 taking my boss hat on and I'm putting my friend hat on or whatever. I can't remember how I phrased it. Just to show her that I really fell for her. And it was, I knew that it was more brutal for her, but I said, this is not easy. And I want you to know that if there was any way I could avoid this, I would have done it, but I can't. And,
 
 Terre Short (21:56)
 Yeah.
 
 Right.
 
 That's right.
 
 Joe Miller (22:09)
 Later on, saw her, I don't remember, I was probably six months later and she goes, you know, that was really a painful time, but I have to say this about you. You were mean in a nice way, which I thought was, well, I thought I was successful in sharing that I'm a human being. I'm just in a different role than you are, you know, I have a different thing I have to do. And I think that helped. And I don't know if that completely fits what you're saying, but yeah.
 
 Terre Short (22:21)
 Ha
 
 That's right.
 
 That's right.
 
 It does. Yeah, it does.
 
 You did it in a loving way. You did it. You did a very difficult thing in the most loving way. Right. And you were empathetic. So when you changed your hats, you were empathetic and you're acknowledged how difficult this was. And I'm sure you didn't make it about you. You were saying it's difficult for you as well. But mostly you're acknowledging that how difficult it is for the individual. And yeah. And at every turn,
 
 What happens is at every turn, there's this, in the busyness of it all, there's this quick way or knee-jerk reaction sometimes that leads us to say things from a place of fear. Like, I don't really agree with this or I don't this and we kind of tend towards this place of fear and that's not helpful. And so when we do that, because sometimes it's easier.
 
 Joe Miller (23:18)
 Mm.
 
 Terre Short (23:26)
 we're not coming from a place of love. And so generally speaking, I believe that much of what's wrong in the world is that it's sometimes easier to respond, not respond, to react, which is coming from a place of fear, as opposed to pause long enough and pivot to leading from a place of love, which is a response as opposed to reaction.
 
 Joe Miller (23:50)
 Hmm. Yeah.
 
 And I love that too, because it connects with kind of values that I know we share, but the whole person who is the leader, right? Rather than compartmentalizing yourself and going in like an actor on stage, you know, for the majority of your life and fulfilling this role on stage to be successful.
 
 Terre Short (23:58)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (24:13)
 So I love that and kind of pivots in my, go ahead. You have something you want to respond?
 
 Terre Short (24:16)
 Well, was just going to say sorry.
 
 was just going to say that's why I lean heavily on the well-being piece. You know, I don't speak to an executive that doesn't
 
 I'm a little trouble juggling everything and I feel overstretched or overwhelmed. mean, right. Like everybody tells you that, right? So you know what I say to them first, Joe? say, well, let's have a look at your calendar, particularly just look at next week and tell me about how many times or what percentage of the time or the number of times, however you want to tell me, are things on your calendar that represent your own well-being? A walk after lunch, a workout in the morning or what have you. And again, they look and they go, ba-bam, ba-bam.
 
 And so, okay, so then what we're saying when that's the case is we're actively choosing not to prioritize our wellbeing because we live by our calendars. So if everything on that calendar is a priority and wellbeing isn't on there, what's that say, right?
 
 Joe Miller (24:55)
 Ha
 
 Yeah.
 
 Well, to me, it says the person doesn't have a foundation. I hate to put it that way, right?
 
 Terre Short (25:15)
 Right,
 
 right. So that's what I was getting at is that it all starts there. And so I'm on this mission to help leaders really weave very tightly their own wellbeing, which then transfers to the wellbeing of their team, but their wellbeing with their leadership style and how they turn up as a leader. It's all intertwined and then they're more apt to be able to be a loving leader and lead from their heart.
 
 Joe Miller (25:40)
 Yeah. Um, boy, that, and I think we're sharing stories, but, but, you know, I've had a couple engagements where people I've coached have been struggling. They're not seeing their goals being fulfilled. They're not seeing that they're being promoted or that they're moving forward. And I asked him similar kind of questions. It's clear to me that they're, they're reacting to everything. And so I tell them, I said, okay, the first thing you need to do is you need to block off some time at the
 
 Terre Short (26:05)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (26:09)
 beginning of the day for yourself to think about and draw into your longer range vision things you need to be working on today and then do it on a weekly basis, that sort of stuff. And I often have to repeat that assignment multiple times and then, I didn't have time, had a lot of stuff going on. And finally, to be honest with you, a couple of occasions I've said, you know, I really can't help you.
 
 Terre Short (26:28)
 Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (26:39)
 until you do this piece. I said, it's got to start here. If you're unable to block off some time for that reflection and for that level of self care, or you're calling it self care, self work, work on your own stuff, then you're really telling me you don't want to move forward because this, I'm not asking for a lot here. And if you can't carve out this much,
 
 Terre Short (27:00)
 That's right.
 
 That's right. Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (27:08)
 There's nothing I'm going to be able to offer or reflect back to you that is going to do move the dial much, you know?
 
 Terre Short (27:15)
 Right.
 
 Yeah. I'll take that a step further and say they're actively choosing by not doing it. They're actively choosing to not prioritize their next steps. Right. Because you're giving them the tool. Yeah. You're giving them the tool and you're telling you're saying this is this thing. Do this thing and we'll start, you know, launch ourselves forward. And they're actively choosing not to.
 
 Joe Miller (27:25)
 And I usually say, go ahead. Yeah.
 
 So I usually suspend. my engagements are for a certain period of time, like a three month, otherwise I can't. You're not serious. And then I'll say, OK, well, you've got a few months left. So call me when you're ready, when you've started this. And I'll be glad to pick up. But right now, we can't meet.
 
 Terre Short (27:52)
 Right? No, I hear you. Yeah, it's everything that it's the and that that sometimes is the bigger change is the perspective the person has to put themselves first. Like sometimes they're just not seeing that. I don't know. It's a good question.
 
 Joe Miller (27:54)
 So.
 
 Yeah. Why is that so hard?
 
 Well, maybe
 
 it goes back to, you know, we can get a little bit psychologically here, maybe it comes back to the conditioning we have in our early years where we get directed, we get our view of ourselves input to us from externals, right? And then we get habituated to that cycle.
 
 Terre Short (28:14)
 Right.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah, well...
 
 Yeah, well, you're just making me think of one of my other words that I didn't mention earlier, should. Should, well, we get stuck in what we should do or that we shouldn't prioritize ourselves. Like that conditioning that you're saying is that, that should thing really holds people up. Should or shouldn't, either way, right? That I shouldn't be prioritizing myself or I shouldn't spend time in my workday to, you
 
 Joe Miller (28:32)
 What is shoulda, coulda, okay, should.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (28:53)
 carve out and think about or strategize on these next steps. I mean, as simple as this, some executives go meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, and they think that they shouldn't block time that somebody might put another meeting in, one hour or 90 minutes or even two hours to do the work, to do the work born out of all those meetings they've had.
 
 Joe Miller (29:02)
 yeah.
 
 ‚Åì all right.
 
 We're gonna have to go there. You just pushed my button. So that is, know, I've been retired now for six years. So, but I mean, for so long, it's still going on obviously, you know, the counters get so full and you go from one meeting to the next and the status updates are BS.
 
 Terre Short (29:17)
 Yeah
 
 Joe Miller (29:39)
 because no one's had any time to do any work, right? Right? So you just keep kicking the can down the road. And it's like, what is the purpose for meeting? You know, it makes no sense at all.
 
 Terre Short (29:42)
 Right, right.
 
 Yes.
 
 Right. Yeah. And then you meet again and you
 
 repeat. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (29:58)
 And so, people just make commitments that aren't real. They hold commitments. They can't possibly get them done. Or if they do them, they're burning the midnight oil or something. And it becomes, again, it drives to this reactive versus proactive behaviors where it really becomes who's beating the hell out of me harder this week than last.
 
 Terre Short (30:11)
 Right, yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (30:24)
 they're going to get my time because I don't have the capacity because I'm continually going from one thing to the next. And so I, I, lay this at the top levels of the organization for not leading well. And, I know Bezos Bezos, you know, had this, this practice where he wouldn't have a meeting without, first of all, he was, wouldn't engage in meetings that often, I believe, but he, he had that practice where
 
 Terre Short (30:24)
 Right?
 
 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (30:52)
 The information that was supposed to have been read before the would be laid on the table. Everyone, you wouldn't talk at all for like the first 10 minutes until you read the information, which was, I guess, a compromise. But it was like, my gosh, how could he waste that much time in this meeting? Waste time? You're just going to talk about the things you didn't do. But you didn't even, yeah, anyway, so meetings is a big issue.
 
 Terre Short (31:06)
 Ahem.
 
 Right, Right, well,
 
 here's my meeting feedback. And this is the loving way to approach meetings, right? Well, first of all, I'm a fan of the 25 minute meeting instead of 30. So you have that five minute transition and then 45 minutes, 50 at the most for the other meetings. I, you know, if I'm coaching an individual at a very large organization, I don't.
 
 Joe Miller (31:27)
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (31:40)
 I don't imagine that they're going to change that for everybody, but they can change that for their team and they can start creating a better practice. So there's the timing of the meetings and then blocking. I personally block 15 minutes between each meeting. Well, that's easy enough to do if the meeting's 45 minutes, then the buffer is the 15 and I go to the next one. Right. And so what do I do in that 15 minutes? I really do recap my notes and see what my, you know,
 
 maybe even put in my calendar next week an action item related, block the time, action item related to this meeting. So I'm doing that post meeting information and then I have a few minutes for prep. And sometimes, quite honestly, Jo, sometimes that's simply the centering myself in three deep breaths and getting my head transitioning from where I was to where I need to be for this meeting, right? And it's nutty that that's not the norm. Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (32:24)
 in the right space. Yep.
 
 no,
 
 no, it's, like we're on the, we're on public transportation and the bus stop is, you know, people come on and we have a new meeting, you know, so it's like going from one to the next. But anyway, that was our segue into meeting frustrations and fulfillment, you know, so people often talk about success and, know, the externals, the achievements, the, the promotions.
 
 Terre Short (32:33)
 you
 
 Joe Miller (32:56)
 How do you get into the topic of fulfillment? Because my belief is that people are all at a subconscious level, maybe subconscious, really looking for fulfillment. But they're chasing other things, hoping that that would give them fulfillment. And so sometimes, especially in mid-career, I find people are kind of reaching, they get to this point where they're like, even
 
 Terre Short (33:08)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (33:23)
 very successful people can go, yeah, just I'm burned out. And they're thinking there's something that they're doing wrong. But they're really like pushing this rock up a hill. And it's just they're worn out.
 
 Terre Short (33:37)
 Well, I don't know if you use this tool as a coach. I've actually, it's very pervasive online and I've modified it to be sort of the Terre Shortway. And I'll explain why. And it's the Wheel of Life. Simple Wheel of Life. I don't know if you've used that, but for your listeners, you have this wheel. And if you look online, it says cut the wheel into eight slices and the slices are going to be the areas of your life that are important to you.
 
 Joe Miller (33:52)
 familiar with.
 
 Terre Short (34:00)
 Terre Short says, well, what if I'm six or what if I'm nine? I get it that it's easier to cut the pie into eight, but maybe I don't have that many. So I abandoned the actual number. And then the other thing is that some of the online versions, they tell you what the individual segments should be. And I am not a fan of that. I think that it's different for different people. an example would be the difference between putting one of the segments as religion or spirituality.
 
 Joe Miller (34:06)
 Ha ha ha!
 
 Terre Short (34:26)
 you know, it resonates differently with people, right? So I have people start there. So what is it? What is it that makes up their wheel? And then, you know, zeros in the middle, tens on the outside. And so where would they currently say they are tracking? And so if they say they're a five for financial ‚Åì health.
 
 Joe Miller (34:26)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (34:45)
 and when do they want to be a 10 or a nine? And so then let's make some goals around that. And so the doing of the wheel helps identify what fulfillment might actually look and feel like. So that's where I typically start. And that's a part of the new book too.
 
 Joe Miller (34:58)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Yeah. and that is by the way you've constructed it, you know, they're essentially, I'll put this as a sort of a backward, as a vision backward, categorized vision backward to today, then looking at the gaps and putting plans in place to get to where they want to be.
 
 Terre Short (35:20)
 Yeah, and in the space and time where they are, it typically generates a three to five year plan. So for example, the young leader with two small children might say finances are at a five and it's not realistic for them to be a 10 for.
 
 I know, maybe decades. So that's okay. So it's like that is what it is right now. And so don't worry so much about that or worry just enough to get it to a six or what have you. So it ends up being a very realistic look and conversation. I mean, I use it as a part of the coaching conversation for them to settle into what fulfillment right now might be, what fulfillment in three years, five years, 10 years might be.
 
 Joe Miller (35:38)
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (36:04)
 typically is a little more realistic and it helps people settle down over the angst one can feel about being fulfilled, right?
 
 Joe Miller (36:13)
 Right.
 
 It kind of gets into that whole work life balance thing in a more realistic conversation that's more grounded. The other thing I think about in relation to this fulfillment piece is recognizing, and you're talking about being self aware and doing that work, but recognizing your innate strengths, abilities. I used to work gifts because I think they're given.
 
 I do often find a disconnect between career choice or.
 
 direction, future direction that my coaches are looking to go to versus what I sense is their temperament and their gifting. I don't know if you expose any of that or they have those kinds of conversations. I think it'd be very powerful because they, first of all, give them permission, well, discover or reaffirm and give them permission to take a different path that, you know what I mean? To make a pivot, career pivot.
 
 Terre Short (36:53)
 Mm.
 
 Right, right. That
 
 would serve them even better, right? So I always talk about what I call evidence to the contrary. That's kind of what you're saying, right? So they've been holding on to this one thing and yet there's evidence to the contrary and it goes both ways. Sometimes they have self doubt and they're wallowing in the self doubt and yet they have this evidence to the contrary. Let me give you an example. I recently...
 
 Joe Miller (37:13)
 Yeah.
 
 That's right there. Yep.
 
 Terre Short (37:32)
 had a client who had their year end, got a raise, got a bonus, got an additional bonus for doing something otherwise extraordinary, got feedback from the very new skip level leader that came into the company, met and got direct feedback and got on a call with me shortly thereafter and said, yeah, I'm just not sure that I'm doing that well.
 
 I was like, well, let's talk about evidence to the contrary. Right. So it goes that way that it's that the one. Right. And then and then it goes the other way where they're holding on to beliefs and strengths that maybe aren't serving them any longer. And and they have evidence to the contrary that they would be better served moving in a different direction. So I spend time.
 
 Joe Miller (38:01)
 Yeah, we don't talk about that often. That's good. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (38:21)
 peeling back the layers of what that evidence might be.
 
 Joe Miller (38:24)
 Yeah, that's good. That surprised me a little bit, evidence to the contrary of succeeding and not wanting to feel free enough to celebrate that, I guess, or view it as confirmation. I've had situations where I've managed people who are thinking of one person in particular right now who thought they were a programmer, but were struggling, but were awesome at something else. And I suggested...
 
 Terre Short (38:37)
 Yeah.
 
 there.
 
 Joe Miller (38:52)
 a new role
 
 and they had real trouble with it because they had so much reinforcement and identity wrapped up into what, you know, and the evidence that this individual was getting was definitely not supporting that path for them. ‚Åì and then, you know, as I look back over time, I'm seeing that person show up and they made a pivot.
 
 Terre Short (38:57)
 Hmm.
 
 Hmm. Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (39:18)
 into something that sees their strength and they're doing great.
 
 Terre Short (39:20)
 Yeah,
 
 and they're probably very, very grateful, which reminds me of another. Well, but you they landed somewhere that probably feels much better. Right. Yeah. And that's you make me think of how often I talk to someone who who brings up today I want to talk about they I do this with air quotes and and I call it an alleged difficult conversation. So they say I want to talk about a difficult conversation.
 
 Joe Miller (39:24)
 ‚Åì I don't know that they're grateful because I it was kind of a direct conversation, but but maybe.
 
 They landed some. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (39:49)
 And maybe that's even giving year-end feedback to somebody. And so they are feeling how difficult that's going to be. Well, the very first thing, Jo, and this is in both books, because I hear it so much and it's so important to get right in my mind. The very first thing I believe the leader should think is, what's the degree of difficulty and who owns that degree of difficulty?
 
 Joe Miller (39:52)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (40:10)
 So, so often people say, I have a nice difficult conversation. I say, okay, well, let's talk about that. Like what makes it difficult for you? And let's peel back the layers of that degree of difficulty. And sometimes it's history with the person or they don't even have a history, but they've heard about history with the person. They've built up all these things. So there are these stories that have multiplied that add to a perception that this will be difficult. And that's...
 
 That's the first thing to unravel because for as long as you believe it's going to be difficult, you will be right. You're leaning into it being difficult. So it'll be self-fulfilling. Right. And so what made me think about this is so often once I coach somebody through this, let's say they're having a performance conversation or year end and they initially perceive that it's going to be difficult. And we talk through it all. They come back and they say, my gosh, the person was so grateful.
 
 Joe Miller (40:41)
 It will be. Self-fulfilling. Yep.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (41:03)
 that I shared candidly, you and I'm thinking to myself from a loving place and not a place of fear. They weren't showing up from a place of fear. They were showing up from a place of love and candidly and vulnerably sharing what the truth of the matter. And the person ends up grateful about it. Sometimes there's even been a termination. This has happened more than a handful of times. To me personally, having to terminate somebody and to clients that I've coached, where the terminated person
 
 Joe Miller (41:08)
 Mmm.
 
 Terre Short (41:31)
 eventually comes back and says, it's best thing that ever happened to me. And, you know, thank you for how you did it and that you, you know, I didn't like it initially. Nobody likes to be terminated, but I'm on the upside for sure. And that's all good.
 
 Joe Miller (41:35)
 Hmm.
 
 That's very timely snippet there because people are getting their feedback right around now in most companies. Yeah, so that's good. So people listening in should really lock into this.
 
 Try to listen to the feedback in a genuine way. And if you're presenting the feedback, try to do it with humanity and with love. I'll just say this, a lot of leaders, I'm thinking about my time in high tech, most of the time it's been biotech and pharma, but high tech in particular, the whole...
 
 Terre Short (42:14)
 Well...
 
 Joe Miller (42:25)
 If you had said that into some environments I've been into, they would go, get away from me with that soft and squishy language. You know, you know, it'd be like a GE talk, you know, let's carve off the bottom, you know? And so yeah, having that, that, mindfulness to try to benefit from the feedback. If you're receiving it, take it in, evaluate it back to where we started at the very top, right. And listen and
 
 Terre Short (42:35)
 Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (42:52)
 and try to kind of, what was it, this? Yep, yeah, yeah. And if you're doing the communication, be sensitive and do it from a place of love and care and wanting to a person to succeed.
 
 Terre Short (42:56)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, just feel into it. Feel towards the more positive. Yeah.
 
 Yeah, here's how I get.
 
 Yeah, and here's how I get people there. I'll know, it's another one of those ones where I go, I'll say, tell me about the best annual review you've ever gotten and what was so great about it. And I get this. I don't don't I don't have an example. I've never had a great one. I hear that so often, least half of the time. And I'll say, OK, well, had it been the best.
 
 Joe Miller (43:16)
 Haha.
 
 ‚Åì
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (43:33)
 evaluation or annual review you've ever had, what would have been the key components of it? Like what would have happened? And then they tell the exact things that I'm encouraging them to do and the ways that I'm encouraging them to do it. And even if it was difficult, they'll say, even if it was something that I didn't do well, I want to hear it in this manner. I want to hear exactly what I could do and I want specifics and this and that. And here's what I say.
 
 Joe Miller (43:43)
 Hahaha.
 
 Terre Short (44:01)
 Well, 10 years from now, when I ask your direct report, should I be coaching them or somebody or Joe Miller ask your direct report? What's the best annual review you've ever had? I want them to say you and what's it going to take for them to say you? Right. And then they go, yeah, OK. And they can they can think about it in that manner and not be fearful about it, but be confident and and concerned enough about doing one of the best reviews ever.
 
 Joe Miller (44:13)
 ‚Åì nice. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (44:27)
 that they lean into a loving way to do it.
 
 Joe Miller (44:30)
 That's awesome. It's great stuff. Boy, what else should we talk about? I mean, we've touched a lot of things. This has been great. I think oftentimes people who are on the outside of the coaching industry may not really, maybe take a few minutes and talk about what coaching is. Because I don't know if you get this, I get a lot of confusion at times early on when people are considering doing coaching.
 
 you know, how much is, they often want to have domain knowledge, which is to me, you you really might be, you're asking for mentoring or something else. They're often just give me some advice or give me the, give me the cheat code and based on your experience. So let's talk about that a little bit because people may want to engage you. or, or a coach in general based on our conversation.
 
 Terre Short (45:13)
 That would be lovely.
 
 Yeah, so I tell every new client this story and I've actually written about this before. So if you're learning to ride a bike, the mentor would come along and the mentor would say, let me tell you about the bike that I chose and what performance I was looking for and let me tell you how it served me over the course of my career. And let me introduce you to some people I've met along the way. Let me tell you why I went this way on the trail as opposed to that way. And it would be very much based on their experience.
 
 The coach would come along and say, let me ask you a gazillion questions that gets at the heart of what performance you're looking for on the bike and what will matter to you. And let's talk about the potential paths in front of you and what appeals to you with this path and so on and so forth. But asking questions, what and how based questions to get at what's important to them. And the therapist would come along and say, Joe,
 
 Joe Miller (45:49)
 Hahaha
 
 Terre Short (46:11)
 let's talk about what's happened in your past that's preventing you from riding the bike. Right? And so, and it might, they might even ask how it feels to ride the bike or to move in this path or that past or what have you. So I always start with that for the difference. On top of that, I think what really the hurdle that I believe we coaches have been still getting over is that is a decade ago.
 
 Joe Miller (46:15)
 Yes. Yes.
 
 Terre Short (46:36)
 maybe even as early as five years ago or as recent as five years ago, coaching was almost exclusively used as a performance improvement. Right. So like you're not doing well, I get you a coach. And it's not like that anymore. mean, it's it's yeah, it's a way to elevate your performance for sure. But in a positive, supportive way, not because you're particularly doing anything wrong. So luckily for we coaches,
 
 Joe Miller (46:45)
 Yeah.
 
 Yeah, right. No, thank God.
 
 Terre Short (47:06)
 top executives and top organizations in this country get that and are now sort of trying to offer coaching at various levels so that people can grow as they go. One of the things that I say in my book is that I'm on a mission to help people be sage at any age. And what I mean by that is that you don't have to wait until you're the VP. I mean, you're actually in trouble.
 
 if you wait till you're the VP to learn some of these leadership capabilities. And so get these practices in place when you're the evolving or emerging leader and you'll be better off and you'll be Sage at any age.
 
 Joe Miller (47:44)
 Yeah, I really liked that. I'm glad you brought in the therapy thing too, because I think sometimes there's a tendency of people to, because a lot of coaching tends to be non-directive and you are asking questions and ‚Åì people can, the coach needs to be careful to stay in their lane for sure. But ‚Åì I think the coachee sometimes
 
 Terre Short (47:59)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Right.
 
 Joe Miller (48:09)
 might be a little confused thinking, you taking me down all those kinds of paths? But I also think about it as sort of a thinking partner, a trusted, confidential thinking partner who has experience with growing, helping people and reflecting what they see. I'm certified from the John Maxwell team, one of the certifications I have, and we did a exercise in the certification process that I think you might kind of resonate with.
 
 Terre Short (48:17)
 Right. Right.
 
 Joe Miller (48:38)
 when it comes to coaching, where the whole room, and there was hundreds of people in the room, to be honest, would break broke up into small groups of like four or five. And they it was a juggling exercise. Not very many people know how to juggle, right? And so different, it was a typical sort of triad arrangement where someone was the observer, someone who was the coach, and someone was the person who was doing the juggling.
 
 Terre Short (48:54)
 Right.
 
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Joe Miller (49:05)
 and trying to draw forth what a coach does versus a mentor. And the coach doesn't really know that domain of juggling, but they're making observations and they're engaging with the coachee saying, I noticed this. Why don't you try that? Let's see how that works. Now, it's a little bit overly simplified because coaches have frameworks and things that really help.
 
 Terre Short (49:09)
 Mmm.
 
 Right.
 
 Right.
 
 I love that. Yeah,
 
 Joe Miller (49:30)
 It was crazy exercise. And actually,
 
 Terre Short (49:30)
 I love it.
 
 Joe Miller (49:33)
 it was very chaotic. The balls were going all over the room at times. But there was some experiences where people said, hey, I actually made progress. And it almost like 45 minutes. Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (49:46)
 Right.
 
 Wow, well,
 
 I love that and I bet you the mentor, I don't know if you got this far, but the mentor would say, I know how to juggle and let me show you how I do it, right? And show you, right. ‚Åì Right. Yeah, I love that I'm gonna use that again if that's okay.
 
 Joe Miller (49:57)
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Keep your eye here, whatever, whatever. Yeah, I don't even know.
 
 I'll give credit where credit is due. was Christian Simpson who was doing the coaching certification with Maxwell at the time who did that exercise. Well, this has been great. I just don't want it to end. Let's see. What else can we? Well, let me ask you this question and it'll help us cap it off kind of in my standard way. Your own personal journey. How did you come to this career?
 
 Terre Short (50:18)
 Me neither.
 
 Joe Miller (50:32)
 of being an executive coach.
 
 Terre Short (50:34)
 Yeah, so I like to say, and I have previous bosses who say, Terre, you would coach anybody. And I like to say I've coached for decades, even when that wasn't my formal role, right? As a leader, I found it incredibly important to coach my team and help them grow and learn and eventually leave me because they got so good at what they were doing. So off they went.
 
 Joe Miller (50:46)
 right.
 
 Terre Short (50:57)
 But to me, that was a good reflection on me, right? And I still appreciate the people that I'm in touch with that occasionally call me for what they call Terre time and maybe a little coaching, informal coaching. And so as a leader, I found it very important to be coaching others. then I started, and to be honest, Joe, I was in the corporate world, out of the corporate world, doing my own business, 15 years, my own business, coaching and consulting.
 
 Joe Miller (51:19)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Terre Short (51:22)
 into the corporate world. And even when I was back into the corporate world that second time, I was coaching. I was like an internal coach, right, and with HCA, so in healthcare. And then once I was, I had one of those conversations about we are eliminating this team, right, and yeah, my team. And so then I said, is a sign.
 
 Joe Miller (51:23)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Mmm.
 
 Terre Short (51:42)
 I won't be going back to the corporate world again. And I went back to my individual coaching that time And when that happened, thought, first of all, I think everybody has a book in them. And I think I've shared with you, I hope I've already shared with you the nonfiction outline that I used. And so at the same time, when I went back into my business, thought, I'm talking about this communication thing and the words we choose so much. I want to put it all together in a book.
 
 And so that's what caused me to write that book. And the same thing with this next book is that I thought, I'm talking about these things day in and day out. I want to pull it together and have it as a general resource for people. So, yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (52:12)
 All that, yeah.
 
 So it sounded like you were doing coaching all that, know, informally in your roles early in your career. You stepped out, you went back in, you went back out, you confirmed that that's what you wanted to do full time. So you were exercising, I'm gonna say you were exercising your natural gifts.
 
 Terre Short (52:36)
 I hope so.
 
 Joe Miller (52:37)
 Well, I did hear
 
 some confirmation from the outside coming back in. I did hear that people were being successful in moving up based upon your coaching. ‚Åì But there was no aha moment or anything like that where you said, I need to be a coach.
 
 Terre Short (52:41)
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Right.
 
 Not that I know, not that I... Yeah, well, actually, so when I was in the last corporate position, I actually said to my boss, that's when people were starting to be certified to, know, and I said, okay, I'm researching this. And I thought that our team who was coaching the hospital executives kind of across the nation, it's the biggest healthcare organization in the country.
 
 Joe Miller (52:53)
 versus the other title you had.
 
 Terre Short (53:16)
 And I thought, huh, maybe we would benefit from doing this program. And she said, you do it, the company will pay for it, you do it, and then we'll see if we want others to do it. Best thing that ever happened. So I will very honestly admit that I thought I was a good coach. And then I took this course and I was like, oh, rock roll. I like I am a way better coach now. I learned so much more than I ever imagined I would learn. And because of all the
 
 Joe Miller (53:37)
 Hahaha
 
 Terre Short (53:45)
 hours of coaching I had, I was able to go immediately to PCC. You you know that as the middle, it's all based on hours. So the middle accreditation. So yeah, and that was my aha moment is that I can be way better at this. And the courses, a year and a half worth of courses helped me to be a way better coach. So I hope that serves my clients well. And I love it. I think what you're perceiving is that it's a passion.
 
 Joe Miller (53:50)
 Yeah.
 
 Terre Short (54:10)
 I can't imagine not doing it. I coach on Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays. I do workshops and I facilitate learning for leaders in more of a group setting otherwise, but I love the coaching.
 
 Joe Miller (54:21)
 Yeah,
 
 yeah. So I mean, I often ask what lessons learned or what would is the typical, what would you say to your 25 year old self or what a rage you want to pick that you might do differently knowing what you know today in terms of your own journey and your own career. And I think that helps inform other people who are looking for making maybe transition.
 
 Terre Short (54:39)
 Well.
 
 For sure. Well, I would say based on what I told you, a sage at any age, I started meditating daily about six years ago. I'd have been doing that at 20 because I see the value of how it settles me and how I'm able to respond better. Amishi Jha wrote the book Peak Mind, and that's a book that I advise to a lot of my clients because she proves that 12 minutes a day is what enables you to have your peak mind.
 
 Joe Miller (54:58)
 centers, yeah.
 
 Terre Short (55:11)
 as needed throughout the day. And so why would I not do that? And I would have been doing it at 20.
 
 Joe Miller (55:17)
 Mm-hmm. All right.
 
 Great. Listen, Terre, thank you so much for being on Titans. I think it's going to benefit anyone who listens all the way through. Best ways for folks to reach you.
 
 Terre Short (55:29)
 Absolutely. my name is spelled differently for Terre. It's terry at thriving lc.com and the LC stands for thriving leader collaborative. And so that's my website as well. So or LinkedIn, you know, finding me because it's Terre spelled t r e short. You can find me on LinkedIn pretty easily like you did. Yeah.
 
 Joe Miller (55:50)
 Yes, exactly. Well,
 
 again, thank you so much. I appreciate your time and sharing your wisdom. All right. All right. Great.
 
 Terre Short (55:57)
 Great, thank you, it's been an honor. Appreciate it.
 
 Bye.