Joe Miller (00:00)
If you're in the job market right now or know someone who is, what you're about to hear from Sarah Andress may be the most useful conversation you come across. The job search is broken, but there are things that actually work. Let's get into it

Sarah (00:19)
There is nothing fair about this. What makes it a little bit more fair in the current climate than it was when you and I were out in the job market? What makes it more fair is actually social media. And that may come as a surprise to a lot of people.

Joe Miller (00:33)
back to Titan's Sarah Andrus. I'm so glad you agreed to join me today. it was really around something I've been observing and conversations I've had with people I Coach. And it is what I would call the broken recruiting environment.

that's the right way of phrasing it.

I want to have sort of a broad reaching conversation with you. I just want to set a framework here that I want to have it from various different angles, you know, and maybe from different perspectives.

Sarah (01:04)
Okay.

to start the business I run today. So 10 years later, we've helped nearly 500 people ⁓ consider everything from career choice, what's next, what am I best suited for, to how do I navigate every stage of the interview process. And of course, things have changed pretty dramatically in the last year or so. So our clients are facing bigger challenges. ⁓

Joe Miller (01:13)
Wow.

Yeah.

Sarah (01:36)
a more difficult job market. And I always say that I keep up on all the trends and everything that needs to be done so that they don't have to.

Joe Miller (01:45)
thank you for that introduction. And it also, you reminded me that of your background. And I think it's going to be great discussion because part of what I wanted to do is think about this situation from all different aspects, all different stakeholders.

know, ideally, obviously, if a company is looking to hire someone in, they want to have a great candidate that's going to be successful. Obviously, someone who's getting hired wants to be the person to be successful as well. But how do we get there? And how do we set that situation up for success for all parties? Let me give you a little bit of my perspective. And I'd love to get your...

your feedback on it. And I thought maybe we could do this in sort of chunks. So why don't we start with the hiring manager. Obviously, I was a hiring manager for many years in technology. And I have to admit that often one of the challenges, think, and I'd be interested, as I said, to hear what your thoughts are on this. But one of the challenges that often happens is the hiring manager is seeking someone new.

quickly because they're under the gun or they're behind on their projects or there's some burning need. And the hiring manager can often be overwhelmed with just doing the job. And for me, that would mean in many cases, I was hiring for my direct reports, which meant I was doing several jobs. wasn't just doing my job. I was doing the openings job, if you will.

I would be contacted by HR and asked me to go through the typical process of giving them not just a job description, but take a fresh look at it and create a job specification that could be then used by recruiters to do the initial search. And I have to admit, I probably didn't spend enough time in that. And part of it, it's just the hiring manager's perspective. But then there was also my peers, because the

positions I would hire for often were providing services. I was in IT, so providing services to different departments and areas of the business. that was one challenge that occurred. And I'd like to get your feedback on that before we go to the next challenge.

Sarah (03:56)
Sure. You know, the first thing that occurs to me as you were talking, Joe, is that we rarely have the time. Hiring managers rarely have the time to thoroughly consider what's next. So what I see happening, and certainly, you know, it happened when I was in corporate, was you just go to the job description and a couple of things could happen. You could add a few things that really annoyed you about the last incumbent. And then

Joe Miller (04:23)
fresh in your mind.

Sarah (04:25)
Yeah, fresh in your mind. Can't take that again. But then maybe not really think and have a meaningful conversation with the team about where the gaps are on the team and what skills we really need to bring to the table. So, you know, a good human resource business officer or a good recruiter is going to work with you on that. But many companies just don't have that kind of talent or that kind of time. And as you mentioned,

I need this done now. I've got a project with the deadline. So I think a good candidate is going to be aware of that tension. And a good candidate will make it as easy as possible to reassure the hiring manager that they're going to be able to hit the ground running.

And also to be aware that there may be conflicts among what the hiring manager wants and this cross-functional team finance, know, all marketing, sales, they all want something. It's really hard to be everything to everybody, but to be aware of that tension and actually ask good questions. So for example, if you're in an interview process where that's going on and you're talking to members of different teams, you know, a great question can be,

Joe Miller (05:21)
Mm. Yeah.

Sarah (05:45)
What's the biggest challenge working with this department from your perspective? And then you can address how you are positioned to work with them better or to help solve that problem. The best candidates are really focusing on how they can solve the problem.

Joe Miller (06:02)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's great. And it is challenge, I would have to say, in some organizations. And it varies, in my experience, quite a bit, because in some cases, the hiring manager is extremely well respected. the hiring manager's peers might defer as long as they are delivering value and

the rest of the organization But it seems though, talking to different people I've coached, that a committee makes the decision and they'll get all the way down the line and the hiring manager sends them all these positive signals. You're perfect for the position, know, whatever.

Sarah (06:37)
Right.

Joe Miller (06:46)
They'll say things they shouldn't say, but they'll say them. then kind of out of the blue, seems, you know, everything will go sideways. And I think sometimes that's because there is a strong other leader that's not getting something that they need. Or culturally, there's this tension that you referred to that is external, that is really getting in the way.

Sarah (07:02)
That's right.

It really does depend where the power lies in the decision making. And that can make it very difficult. know, candidates very vulnerable to those kinds of circumstances. Part of what you learn as a job hunter is the balance between resilience and doing your own due diligence and trying to understand, you know, what is this person's role in relation to the work I'm going to be doing.

Joe Miller (07:14)
Yeah.

Sarah (07:37)
I do think that a lot of candidates make the mistake of trying to sell the hiring manager and dismissing the other people. Misunderstanding that it may be a decision by committee or it may be where I see things fall apart often is with the higher up person, you know, that final interview, you know, that one with the VP or that one with the director who's and they always presented as

Joe Miller (07:43)
Mmm.

Skip, skip, yeah, yes.

Sarah (08:03)
But this is just sort of a, you know, ⁓ just a vibe check, right? And it's never just a vibe check. And, you know, sure, if the vibe's off, you're not going to get the role, but it's always more than that. It's that, you know, whoever is really making the decision is very hard to discern in these circumstances. I like asking questions. I always tell my clients, hey, ask, who's really involved in the decision-making here? I'd love to understand.

Joe Miller (08:06)
Prefunctory. Yeah. Sure. No.

Sarah (08:31)
how decisions are made. Because when you ask a question about general decision making, first of all, great data for you to have to see if you're comfortable with that process. But it will also tell you, I need to take that into account for this because this is a decision as well.

Joe Miller (08:49)
Right. know, I think maybe in the second and the third rounds, this would come up more. But I think candidates can often get ahead of themselves and the vision that they have they have gotten the job. That's not bad. Have confidence. Don't get me wrong. But they suspend sort of their

better judgment because there may be red flags for them in terms of the culture and the tension we talked about in the organization. And then I think it's good to ask yourself based upon my interviews this week, is this a company I want to go to work for the way it is currently today? Or is this a hiring manager? Or is this a situation that will serve me well? Now, you know, before we went on camera, we talked a little bit about, you know,

Sarah (09:11)
Yes.

Yes.

Joe Miller (09:39)
People may need to do what they need to do depending on their situation, but it's asking those kind of questions, those probing questions are important, not just to get hired, but after they get hired as well, or if they get an offer, right?

Sarah (09:52)
That's true.

One of the things I recommend and we do with our clients all the time is something I call it ideal job benchmark. And I think there are six components to an ideal job. It's of course your skill set and what work you're going to be doing. Then there's also the pay and benefits and there is the culture of the organization, which includes things like how our decisions made here and

How do I feel when I walk into the office? Something like, people go to lunch together? How do people, what are the ways of working around here? And then, you know, the whole remote hybrid location is also a consideration along with the purpose of the organization, because that can matter a lot. Are you aligned with that? it aligned with your values? And then something I don't think people consider enough is,

Joe Miller (10:32)
Yeah.

Sarah (10:45)
Who do you want to be working with? Who are those people? What can we, you know, what can we learn about them? Think about your, the jobs where you were the happiest, the jobs where you went home feeling like that was a good day. What were the characteristics of that job that you should make note of before the interview? Certainly before the offer, because otherwise you're going to be seduced into, the excitement and the wooing. It's almost like a courtship.

Joe Miller (10:49)
You

Yes.

It is, once they've decided on you for sure.

Sarah (11:15)
that,

and they're trying to sell you. So as you pointed out, it really should not be this fear-based, will they hire me, which is how most job hunters enter this process, but it really should be, do I want to work here? And it feels like a luxury, especially in the current climate where the competition is very high and the job search is being extended out by months and months.

Joe Miller (11:35)
Yes.

Sarah (11:42)
But it's not a luxury if you don't want to be job hunting again in six months to a year.

Joe Miller (11:47)
Right. And we knew you'd need to touch on that, but let's move on to the one of the HR side of this, if we could. Because again, because your background, this is great. Hiring managers typically complain about the individual within the recruiting team that's assigned to them to do the screenings, not knowing anything. I was in IT, right? So they don't know anything, you know? They put this person in front of me. I don't know why I'm talking to them. So you get all of that.

Sarah (11:54)
Sure.

Joe Miller (12:15)
But upstream, as I said before from all that, is what the hiring manager actually does to enable that recruiting team to find good candidates. So the responsibility, that's a prerequisite.

Sarah (12:24)
Sure.

Joe Miller (12:27)
So from your perspective, what have you seen that...

job seekers need to be aware of in dealing with the HR and the recruiting organization inside of a company that they should know about to put their best foot forward.

Sarah (12:45)
There's a couple of things to be aware of. The first is that there has been in the last 18 months to two years, dramatic turnover in a recruiting office, across the board, dramatic turnover. And that means that you're very likely going to be talking to somebody who is not experienced at their job. And part of what you need to do is help them do their job well by giving them the information that they need.

they often will know nothing about the job they're recruiting for. there's so much concern about lawsuits and being equitable, which is justifiable. But what that means is they may have a standard set of questions they ask you, right? And they're not able to go any further. And they don't understand. They have a script precisely so, especially in that initial screen.

Joe Miller (13:26)
⁓ right. Yes.

Yeah, they got a script. Yeah.

Sarah (13:38)
And then I know we're going to talk about AI in a minute, but sometime you're, you know, your first screen is going to be a video screen that's analyzed by a bot. And that's, that's the reality. But I think the other thing to keep in mind is that most, the vast majority of the people in HR want the best for you and they want the best outcome for the hiring manager. They want the best outcome for the team. They want the best outcome for the company.

Joe Miller (13:41)
That's part of it, yeah. It's AI.

Sarah (14:06)
and their job is to try to sell you on the roll. And some of them overplay that a little bit. But then if they give you push away, then you wonder, do they really like me? So it's very complicated. I like to remember that they're humans and they're horribly overworked. I have a friend who's a chief human resource officer at a FinTech company. And she told me that two years ago or so she used to get, say around

Joe Miller (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (14:33)
50 applications for the role she was generally hiring for, not entry level, sort of mid-level roles. Now she gets 500 and her HR team has not grown. So how do you keep up with that? And so, you know, not enough companies are putting in systems that help them manage this. And that's why we see the ghosting and that's why there's the

Joe Miller (14:44)
500.

Sarah (14:57)
know, poor communication. I had a client who got a rejection letter one day and then an invitation to interview the next day from the same company.

Joe Miller (15:00)
Mm-hmm.

man.

Sarah (15:08)
So it's it's bad. I mean, that's the only thing to say about it and one of the things You know for better or worse if you're getting that kind of Miscommunication if you're getting mixed messages Those are red flags if the HR department is not run. Well That may be a reflection on how the company operates in general. It may mean they're not investing in their human resources

Joe Miller (15:10)
Yeah.

Sarah (15:37)
⁓ function and that's a red flag.

Joe Miller (15:37)
Right. Right.

So I'm curious about something you said at the very top. You said that there's been quite a bit of churn. I wonder what your perspective is on that. What has caused the churn in the HR departments? Is it just general industry stuff or is it AI impact on the lower level recruiting positions?

Sarah (15:58)
I will tell you, I

don't think it's the AI impact at all. I think it is a very difficult job, number one, and I think it's a very difficult job to do well. If you think about what a first screen recruiter does, this is the entry level recruiting role. They are talking to probably dozens of people every single day saying the same thing.

Joe Miller (16:24)
Wow, yeah.

Sarah (16:26)
over and over again and trying to be discerning and trying to follow the specs that they've been given and checking off the check marks and trying to listen, but as you mentioned earlier, maybe not getting great guidance from the hiring manager. And I want to say, by the way, because I can't say it often enough, these are all reasons why networking is critical in the current job market. You do not want

your job search to be relying on a very fractured system that is not functioning at its best. So the best hiring managers are already going to have a bench of people so that they don't have to wait for all that craziness to sort of process through recruiting. The best managers I know are going to recruit, you know, their internal recruiter and saying, here are the people I want to interview. And the recruiter will say,

Joe Miller (17:12)
Right, right.

Yeah.

Sarah (17:22)
Yes, and we'll post and the manager will say, sure.

Joe Miller (17:26)
Yep. Right. That's the other thing that can happen.

Sarah (17:29)
But it's not fair.

There is nothing fair about this. What makes it a little bit more fair in the current climate than it was when you and I were out in the job market? What makes it more fair is actually social media. And that may come as a surprise to a lot of people. But if you're smart and tactical and you know how to use LinkedIn, you can be one of those people who takes the time to meet a hiring manager. You can do that.

And a surprising number of hiring managers will take that call when they're not looking so that they can build their bench. And staying in touch with those people and being strategic about your search will often put you ahead of the game.

Joe Miller (18:07)
Right.

So we've talked about the hiring manager. We've talked about the HR department. And one observation I have before we leave that is that candidates, if you're seeking a job,

you need to set your expectations as to who you're talking to. And this context is really helpful, Sarah, to understand not only do you have these overworked folks who are the initial point of contact on an opportunity, but they're often inexperienced. So it's the combination of those things. So.

Sarah (18:48)
That's right. And they're trying to do their best.

Joe Miller (18:50)
They're

trying to do their best, treat them well. mean...

Sarah (18:53)
Yeah, well, it can't hurt to treat them well for sure.

Joe Miller (18:55)
Well,

yeah, I mean, they have their challenges and, you know, try to be as helpful in the process as you can. Obviously, you want to optimize it as best you can. But if you're fighting with nine million other people, that's not a good strategy to your earlier point.

Sarah (19:10)
No, no.

The other thing I want to point out is how many people I speak with who say, that phone screen, that did not go well. And then they get invited to the next round. There's a reason for that. A lot of recruiters who are better trained, you know, they try to remove emotion from the equation. In other words, they're strictly evaluating you.

Joe Miller (19:22)
Around, yeah.

Sarah (19:37)
And they are on purpose, I think out of kindness, not giving you a strong vibe.

not because they don't like you, not because they don't want you to work there, but because they want to manage expectations as you move through the process. And so again, recruiters are humans, just like me and you, and we want to do our best to ensure that every single person, if you're a recruiter and you're doing your job well, you are ensuring that every single person you talk to is getting the same.

affect from you or affect from you.

such a dramatic change that I actually discount a lot of my own personal experience from when I was engaged with that. And I look much more to what I'm seeing in the market right now, the relationships that I have sustained with recruiters and people who are very deeply engaged with this, people in leadership roles in recruiting to try to stay very current on what's going on. There are a few things I would say.

tactically that people should be doing if they're not doing it that make a massive difference. One is be an early applicant. That means 96 hours of the job going up on the company page. So this is research by TalentWorks from last September, I think. Actually.

Yeah, maybe a year ago. Yeah, a year ago, September. So September 2024, they found that if you are an early applicant in the first 96 hours, then you have an 8x greater chance of an interview. Now think about why. I can imagine it's gotten even more important. The reason is that there are so many people on the job market right now and people are applying wildly and there are now also eight

Joe Miller (21:29)
AI. Yeah. ⁓

Sarah (21:29)
AI businesses that

will apply for you. Don't use them. Don't use them. But companies are getting so many more applications that a smart manager is going to look at who came in in the first few days through our company website. Because that tells me that they were really interested in our company anyway or before. And I'm not waiting for those hundreds of applications to come in to look at who's out there.

I'm going to grab the first couple of days. I'm going to peruse some resumes. And if I see enough good candidates, I'm going to close that spigot.

Joe Miller (22:04)
The prer is what? The first hundred maybe. I mean, some of these things have crazy numbers. yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's great.

Sarah (22:09)
Yeah, I don't know.

So that is the single outstanding thing you can do to affect whether you get an interview. And then the other thing is networking, which I know we'll talk about.

Joe Miller (22:25)
Well, that's a good segue. So let's pivot now and talk about the candidate side, which is kind of what most of what I expect you'll have to say relates to. So yeah, let's talk about networking. Let's talk about the best practices as you see them today, given the environment that we're in.

Sarah (22:36)
Yeah.

Joe Miller (22:51)
What does that really mean? What's effective networking? What's not effective networking? What is networking? You know what I'm saying?

Sarah (22:58)
100 % yes. I think people misunderstand it. So I think that networking is or has become a dirty word because everybody's so uncomfortable with it. But the best networking is really about building relationships and sustaining them. The best networking is not transactional. Hey, can you do me a favor or what I can't stand that I hear people say, keep your eyes open for me.

you are making your job search, yeah, you're making your job search somebody else's job. That is not the point. The most effective networking builds on a natural connection. So for example, LinkedIn is the singular most useful tool in a job hunter's toolbox. And the way to approach it is to look at a natural connection like we do the same work or we went to the same college or university.

Joe Miller (23:26)
I don't have enough to do.

Sarah (23:53)
And to aim for not HR and recruiters, they do not have time for you and they have no decision-making authority. So don't reach out to recruiters unless you want to ask them some concrete questions, but they're not going to help you into the interview stage. The people you should be aiming for are people I call near peers. People who are in roles that you're interested in, at companies that you're interested in.

you should have a target employer strategy. So you're looking specifically at somewhere between 30 to 50 companies and you are intentionally building relationships within those organizations. So you're using LinkedIn to identify people and then you are not DMing them on LinkedIn because very few people check their LinkedIn DMs. A far more effective strategy is to use a free email

finder like hunter.io. I get nothing from them. I just think they're good, they're free, and you get about 30 searches a month where you can find somebody's email and you email them at work. And your subject line might be something like, you know, fellow University of Delaware alum with a question about Comcast. Well, they're probably going to open that. And then you're not asking for a job, you're asking for a conversation. You might say something like,

I'm doing some research into my next step. You know, it's very important to me that I land in a place that's a good fit. I'd love to chat with you about how you like working at Comcast. Are you happy there? And then you have to go in with questions. And by the way, I have like templates for this and all kinds of things ⁓ and scripts and yeah, yeah, happy to provide that because nobody should have to reinvent the wheel.

Joe Miller (25:35)
We'll have your information in the show notes.

Sarah (25:42)
But the point is to do it gently, invite them, and follow up. Most people find that they won't hear back the first time, do not be discouraged. Follow up the next week and the response rate goes way up. Or give it two weeks, whatever you feel comfortable with. But the key is that this is an ongoing conversation. So imagine you've done that. You and I have talked. We've had a good networking conversation. And I say, hey, Joe, if I happen to see a job.

at Comcast, could I give you a call or could I shoot you a note and get some insights about that role? And you're going to say fine. And then I do that. And see, that's what's effective. I see the job because I'm checking the company website three times a week. And I reach out to you and I say, this job, do you know the manager? Could I put your name down as a referral, for example?

yeah. Something that most people feel uncomfortable doing, but it really does make a difference is following up, sending another note a week to 10 days out and saying, hey, I just wanted to follow up. I'm sure you're busy, but I'd love to chat with you about how you like working at Comcast. And the response rate will go up fairly dramatically. And then you're really sustaining that relationship, staying in touch with people.

If you see a job at that company, you can reach out and say, hey, do you know anything about this? Might I use you as a referral? And you'd be surprised how many people say yes. And it's not because they're the nicest people in the world. Many companies have referral bonuses. And if you wind up getting hired, then that could put an extra thousand bucks in my pocket. So I have a personal incentive for referring you if I think you're decent. But ideally,

you've kept up a relationship which could look like maybe four months out or I'm sorry four weeks out sending me an article that had something to do with what we talked about or updating me on whether you took my advice and how it went.

Joe Miller (27:47)
great. mean, this is sort of basically how you warm a lead, right? And what, you know, often can happen is in your, in your desire to find a position, you are reaching out cold and person doesn't know you at all. So you need to get to know people first. And I think the other part, which you heavily implied, and when you open this

Sarah (27:52)
Yes, precisely.

Joe Miller (28:14)
part of the conversation is that you need to keep your network live and organic and invest in it when you're not looking. And it's two way. I mean, if people reach out to you, you know, for similar kind of help and support, then I think you need to be generous as well because they're going to remember that, you know.

Sarah (28:24)
Yes.

You really do.

I want to give you a statistic, Joe, because I think it's relevant and then and then share a personal experience. 87 % of people who got job offers over the last six or seven years reported that somebody helped them in that process. Somebody they networked with helped them in that process. And we know from Ashby, which is the largest. If.

perhaps one of the largest applicant tracking software companies, that if you just click apply and you do nothing else, you don't work through a staffing agency, you're not an internal candidate, your LinkedIn profile isn't up to date, you've done nothing but click apply, you have a 3 % chance of getting a job offer.

So it's really not an option, but I want to speak to the people who have not kept their network going because they are feeling really ashamed. They're beating themselves up. And I want to say, it doesn't matter where you're starting from, just start. I got a message from a former colleague and I know it was after 13 years because it was the first thing he said in his message. He said, it's been 13 years.

and shame on me. And there is a way to write these notes. You can acknowledge the time. You can tell them something that they really liked about you. You really liked about them, right? You can, a little bit of flattery, sure. But the thing is that if you really enjoyed working with somebody or talking with somebody, they're gonna be happy to hear from you no matter what. Are they gonna suspect that yes, you'll ask them for something? Sure.

Joe Miller (30:01)
Hmm?

Sarah (30:19)
Did I know that this guy was going to ask me for something? Of course. But I liked him and I was curious. The other thing I want people to keep in mind if they've let their network go or they're wondering, they won't have time for me. Why would they want to talk to me? I've got nothing to offer. I hear this pushback to networking all the time. I'm going to give you the most common answer and I hear it from everyone.

Joe Miller (30:34)
Mm.

Sarah (30:44)
A lot of people want to do something other than the work that's right in front of them.

Bottom line, talking to you is better than the work that's right in front of them, that they just don't want to do, that they want to put something that's not their routine on their calendar. If you're young and you don't have that much experience and you're wondering why somebody older would want to bother talking to you, they want to know what younger people have to say. People want to know what you have to say if your peers and you're working at one of their competitors, they definitely want to talk to you.

So there's all kinds of good reasons why people will say yes. And it's just your fear talking when you come up with reasons why they wouldn't talk to you.

Joe Miller (31:30)
Yeah, that's great. And so really investing time in developing and keeping that network healthy is one of the best investments you can do for your career, I would say. And of course, stay up to date on the way LinkedIn works as well, because things do shift. Sarah may have some tips on that.

Sarah (31:38)
Yes.

Hahaha

Yes.

Joe Miller (31:55)
But can we move on a little bit and talk about maybe progression through the process? then we'll cap everything off with a little bit more AI discussion, I think. But progression through the process, multiple rounds. Someone close to me is going through a lot of interviews these days, and they are brutal. I mean, I remember having interviews in my career where

You know, it was three rounds and I would get presented to 40 or 50 people at lunch. you know, I felt like it was in a press conference or something,

And I know this can vary based upon the career choice you have, but I just wondered what your insights are and your suggestions for candidates.

Sarah (32:37)
Well, I do think that the interview processes for many roles have become onerous. They're asking us to do work, you know, putting in hours on hypothetical questions or doing projects without pay. I think some of this is unreasonable and unacceptable. Of course, if you need a job, you're going to do it, but then it hurts even more.

Joe Miller (32:59)
Sure. Yeah.

Sarah (33:01)
if it's not acknowledged. I do think that it's okay to push back to some degree on some of these requirements. So there are, you know, for example, the deadlines, we're going to give you questions on Friday, we need that by Monday. Well, it's okay to say I'll be able to get that to you by Wednesday. If you start putting in boundaries and they don't accept your boundaries, imagine what it will be like to work there.

Joe Miller (33:26)
There you go. Right.

Sarah (33:26)
You're not even their employee yet.

So I think a little bit of pushback is appropriate, you know? But it's perfectly, like, really the norm to have five or seven interviews. And part of that is because in the pandemic, we learned that it wasn't necessary to get everybody in the room all at once. Or we have a distributed team where the time zones are different and you're going to have to be talking to this person at

Joe Miller (33:31)
It's fine.

Mmm.

Sarah (33:54)
seven o'clock at night, you know, or you're to have to be talking to that person at seven a.m. in the morning because they're in Europe. Part of this, you have to roll with the punches. And I also think it's incumbent upon companies to rein this craziness in. And the best companies are going to be transparent about the entire interview process from the very beginning.

When I see a client who's gotten an invitation to an interview and then it says, if you make it to the following round, here's what will happen from there. That is a green flag. That is a great company who has thought about very seriously how they are moving candidates through the process. I also think it's really smart to ask for that if you don't get it. It's perfectly okay in your first interview.

Joe Miller (34:32)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (34:47)
To ask, could you share with me what the interview process and the timeline looks like from here? That also then gives you the data you need to follow up if you haven't heard from.

Joe Miller (35:01)
All right. All right. That's good. Yeah. It's very reasonable. And if you get pushed back on that request, it's like, yeah, to me, it's kind of a red flag. It really is. Easy for me to say I'm retired. ⁓ boy. Yeah. So yeah, then moving forward in the process, getting to...

Sarah (35:12)
It is.

Hahaha

Joe Miller (35:26)
We talked about the dynamic in an organization as you're meeting, maybe you're hiring managers, peers, and all those other kinds of things. And rolling with the punches is important there, but I loved the point you made earlier about really trying to understand what each stakeholder is looking for in this role that you're interviewing for. Yeah. ⁓

Sarah (35:44)
Mm-hmm.

and how you will be working together because

that will help you answer their questions more astutely.

Joe Miller (35:54)
There is something that I learned mid to late in my career that was very helpful to me in interviewing. I just want to kind of get your sense on this. And when I started getting training for coaching, I started being a lot more sensitive to individuals temperaments and the way they view the world. ⁓ And so I would do some mirroring.

Sarah (36:12)
Hmm.

Sure.

Joe Miller (36:20)
and try to do some translation in my communication style with those stakeholders to make sure that I was providing additional resistance to what I was saying based upon my innate style. And I think that I could see connection happening that was below the surface of the words I was saying, if you know what I mean.

Sarah (36:35)
Sure.

I'm sure that's much more likely if you're mirroring somebody's style and they are leaning forward and you're leaning forward and they are leaning back and you're leaning back.

Joe Miller (36:52)
yeah, that's mirroring. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (36:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Miller (36:55)
Yeah,

those things, so lots of times, especially in technical careers, when you mention things like that, people think that it's fluffy and why are you talking about those or fake? And honestly, I'm not suggesting you be being manipulative. All I'm saying is if you have a very direct style and the person sitting across the table has a reaction to that, and if you're looking for it,

Sarah (37:05)
Or fake even.

Now.

Joe Miller (37:24)
and you can make that adjustment, that can make all the difference in the world. It's just like, you know, don't scream at me. Or that's extreme, but yeah.

Sarah (37:30)
would say also, yeah, yeah.

I would say also that if you're a very direct person and that's how you show up in the world.

Joe Miller (37:38)
It need to be you.

Sarah (37:40)
If you try to change that too much to become what everybody else is looking for, you're probably going to be unhappy in the role.

Joe Miller (37:42)
Right.

Right.

So when I spoke to department heads who were scientists, I had common ground and even just bringing up the common ground could be perceived as being manipulative, but I wasn't. was trying to...

to build a bridge and express things in the same way. could use IT terms about how you do testing or I could use experimental design kind of terminology to make the bridge. So I just think it's important, the communication of what and how you present yourself is extremely important. And no, you absolutely do not wanna be someone other than who you are.

So, and in fact, I'm glad that came up organically because that is another key to people who are coming into a role trying to be the person they think is required in the job and it's not them. And if you're too far afield for what that job is or what that job requirement is, at the very get-go and you lack the confidence, confidence is huge here, you lack the confidence.

to speak authentically into that, you're in deep trouble, I think, in terms of landing a position.

Sarah (39:02)
So I do think we need to show up authentically when we are interviewing or we'll set ourselves up for failure or disappointment. I don't think we should be twisting ourselves into pretzels. And I really think this also gets to career choice, you know, how I help clients decide or navigate this idea of, this job I'm in right now doesn't feel like a fit, but what do I do now?

Joe Miller (39:18)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (39:26)
It's really important that you listen to those inner messages. If you finish an interview and something feels off or you think, you know, don't know if I'm going to be happy with this. It's important to listen to those signs that gut instinct is telling you something really hard when you're, especially if you're unemployed or you need to get out of a bad situation at work, but listen.

Joe Miller (39:50)
Yeah, yeah. And that is so important, comes up a lot in my coaching. And on this podcast, Titans of Transition, because often people reach mid-career and they realize that they are operating off an agenda that was from outside, not from inside of them. And they've been pushing that rock up the hill forever and wondering why they're exhausted or...

Sarah (40:14)
exhausted or not getting ahead. We see this a lot with recent graduates who went to school for accounting or computer science, but that wasn't really aligned with their skill set. But they heard that was good. We've got jobs, right? Well, they're never going to be able to compete with the people who really love that.

Joe Miller (40:16)
Right.

Yeah, that's true. And even if they get in and maybe they're skilled and they're okay, but they're not thriving, you know? And it's okay for people to make changes.

Sarah (40:40)
Yep. Yes. They're fine. Exactly.

That's right, a career is not a one and done decision.

Joe Miller (40:52)
That,

I've had several. So yeah, yeah, it's a journey. Well, listen, I've been teasing this, so let's get into the AI employers are actually using AI bots to scan video interviews. Did you say that?

Sarah (40:56)
Me too.

I did say that. Absolutely. They're very prominent platforms. think the biggest one is called HireVue. so your first invitation will be that you need to sign up for this interview. And generally, there's a timeframe. Within the next three days, you have to log on to this website. And you will be asked by a, I don't want to say a cartoon character.

Joe Miller (41:11)
Tell me more about that.

Sarah (41:35)
character, but a person who is not real, an avatar, OK, will be on the screen and will ask you the normal first round interview questions. Tell me about yourself. Can you tell me about a time when you had a conflict? Right. What are your strengths and weaknesses? The very basic questions you might get in a screening call. you have, depending on how the company sets the parameters,

Joe Miller (41:35)
⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. A digital clone, I think. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (42:04)
you have maybe two to three minutes to record an answer. And some companies will give you one re-recording, some will be kind and give you two or unlimited, I don't know. Depends on the company, they can set that. So you really do need to prepare for this as though you were talking to a real person. But you also have to do some things very differently. You have to think about your background.

Joe Miller (42:08)
Mmm.

Sarah (42:28)
You have to think about what you look like in the frame. have seen, I used to make my students do this at University of Delaware, where, you know, I taught classes on this and I would make them record these videos and you know, you'd see them like looking up their nose or you know, you'd only see this part of their head. You have to be so careful about everything. It's an added level of stress because we hate seeing ourselves on camera.

And we don't like our voices in general. I don't know anybody who is comfortable with that. So it adds an additional level of stress to the first round interview. Then what the AI function does is it looks, it listens to the answer. It listens for keywords that have been programmed into what's called the LLM, the, you know, learning management and

Joe Miller (42:57)
Right.

Sarah (43:24)
It's judging you based on, you say the key words? It's also judging you on your affect, which is so difficult. I will also say that most of these models were trained on young white men who developed them. So they do not read faces of color. They do not do well with voices in a certain range.

Joe Miller (43:48)
Mmm.

Sarah (43:49)
If you come from a culture where smiling is considered rude, right? Bull.

Joe Miller (43:54)
Yeah.

Sarah (43:56)
bright smile is considered rude in some cultures or that you lack seriousness. The AI model can score you lower. So I think this is, know, certainly the hiring community knows about these flaws and they're trying to address these flaws. But as a candidate, you need to know that that's what you're walking into. And there are ways to prepare for these interviews that can make you feel more confident. I, yeah, I encourage people to.

To do a lot of practice, can do this on your own by watching yourself in your phone and recording all of your interview answers in your phone, which is great practice, and forcing yourself to watch them.

Joe Miller (44:34)
This is a whole new world of coaching.

Sarah (44:36)
Okay.

Joe Miller (44:37)
I'll leave that to you.

Sarah (44:39)
Yeah.

Joe Miller (44:40)
So they're still doing all the upstream resume scanning and all that stuff.

Sarah (44:46)
So, you know, the AI function, most people misunderstand that and they think, my resume didn't get through ATS. I want to tell you that ATS is not killing your resume. That is urban myth. Does it matter that your resume has have keywords? Absolutely. You ought to tailor your resume to every job posting. If you get an automatic rejection,

and you think, well, ATS spit out my resume. That's not what happened. Actually, a recruiter has to reject, has to press reject to get you consider. What the ATS does is it scores your resume. And the recruiter takes that score very seriously. And a lot of companies are engaging recruiters to work in shifts. So yes, you might get a rejection at 8 o'clock at night, and that doesn't mean that a computer rejected you. Here's what I want people to know about this.

Joe Miller (45:35)
That's good to know.

Sarah (45:38)
If a job is posted on LinkedIn, for example, and you apply and you get an immediate rejection that wasn't ATS, that was a recruiter who put a cap on the number of applications they were going to look at, said, we're not taking anymore, right? Or the hiring manager hired somebody.

And that job is closed, but for whatever reason, somebody didn't pull it down off the internet. There are all kinds of reasons why you would get an automatic rejection. So that's why networking is so critical. As I said, one of my clients got a rejection one night and an invitation to interview the next day.

Joe Miller (46:06)
It's bouncing. Yeah.

That is so wild. And then of course, there's a lot of discussion going on as impact and different levels of the organization of AI technology coming in. Now, I have a couple private communities of IT leaders that I talk to often, and they're obviously looking to implement AI technologies within their companies for

Sarah (46:33)
Yes.

For sure.

Joe Miller (46:45)
productivity

to be competitive. But they are a little bit more conservative in terms of how they utilize these technologies.

Sarah (46:54)
Right, and that's because they're in the life sciences. What I will say is that AI is coming for a lot. Yeah, it's here. So we all have seen the AI functions in customer service. So customer service, those entry-level roles are being ⁓ eliminated. Yeah, exactly. The entry-level jobs are being eliminated in customer service. They're also being eliminated in...

Joe Miller (46:59)
Yeah, let's hear. Yeah.

the lower levels, that's where I was going, lower level, yep.

Sarah (47:22)
I would say finance, analytics.

Anything that could be done faster by a computer, so certainly reading a spreadsheet, calculating numbers, we're also, also research. So roles like paralegals and even accounting roles at the lower level, junior accounting roles in corporate, not so much tax, but corporate, yeah.

Joe Miller (47:31)
Repeatable administrative, yep.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, and another consequence besides that is that it's recasting a lot of other roles, right? So now what we're starting to see, what I'm starting to see is that within a role, you're utilizing AI tools, but now there are other skill sets popping up that have not been as prominent.

Again, this is technology space like data analysts and people who are critical in order to leverage that technology are popping up and being given.

Sarah (48:25)
Right,

but most of those people are going to need advanced degrees.

Joe Miller (48:27)
That's

right, it's still up in the organization. So I heard a, yes, I heard a, I can't remember what the statistic was, but I heard a pretty scary statistic about graduates not being able to get any interviews recently.

Sarah (48:31)
It's the higher level data scientists, modelers, statisticians.

we do know that let's use 2023 as a college graduation year. So with the baccalaureate, it's estimated that 50 % of those college graduates are underemployed. And what underemployed means is either they're working in a role that does not require a college degree.

Joe Miller (48:47)
high.

Sarah (49:11)
or they're working in a role that does not match their skill set, or they have several part-time jobs. So they're underemployed, 50%. It's massive and we're going to have the repercussions of that in our economy and begin thinking about it. But I do want to say something positive about this trend because I'm a student of history. I just am passionate about it.

Joe Miller (49:19)
That's huge. Yeah.

Sarah (49:39)
And I did some research and found out that in the early, before the advent of the car, of the Model T, so 1800s up to that point, one in every five American men was a blacksmith. That is a lot of blacksmiths.

Joe Miller (49:57)
a lot

of banging of metal. Yeah.

Sarah (50:00)
That's right, and making horseshoes

and carriages and wheels and barrels and all of those blacksmiths had to reinvent themselves with the advent of the automobile because people no longer needed to, you know, they didn't need horseshoes.

Joe Miller (50:19)
and

hand-forge things. Yes, absolutely.

Sarah (50:22)
Yeah.

So we are at another of those moments in history. Yes, we are. And the people who survive are the people who see it and don't put their head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. So for example, you know, I'm a person of a certain age, but I...

Joe Miller (50:25)
Inflection points. Yep.

Sarah (50:42)
have made it my mission in 2025, I made it my mission to learn how to use AI in my own business. And I now use AI in my business because I thought how hypocritical not to figure that out, right? And we have to understand the language. We have to watch the trends. And it doesn't mean there's no more art or music. I mean, I know there's all this scary stuff out there.

Joe Miller (50:50)
Yeah, me too.

Sarah (51:07)
I'm really thinking about this is another tool we leverage and what we can do with it will determine the direction. do personally not to get into it. I think it needs much more regulation. Just like cars needed seat belts and we needed highways and we needed rules of the road and driving tests. think we need

Joe Miller (51:15)
Yes.

Yeah.

Sarah (51:30)
far more regulation and I hope it comes soon.

Joe Miller (51:32)
I mentioned ⁓

just a little example of how I put it in place in my business, my little sideline, semi-retirement sideline with the private communities. One of the biggest challenges with CIOs, Chief Information Officers, is that the rate of change of technology is so hard to keep up with. So I created a newsletter

Sarah (51:52)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Miller (51:55)
And I use AI to do the deep research I put it into a newsletter platform and I send it out. I've had several really positive comments like, wow, this is really good. I I put a disclaimer on it. But those kinds of things

were not possible. And it's a forcing function. So anyway.

Sarah (52:11)
No.

And I would say here when it comes to the job search, if you want a really quick way to optimize your resume, take your resume, take the job posting, put it into your favorite AI tool, and ask the tool to recommend the very best adjustments to your resume. You do have to tell it not to embellish. You have to tell it not to add anything. Yeah.

Joe Miller (52:29)
rip it apart.

to be honest, right? Not to hallucinate.

Sarah (52:40)
Only use information on my current resume. I also like to ask it to identify any skill gaps that there might be because it could give you an opportunity to address that that you missed. It's not just about like, you need a certificate in X, but maybe you could have better highlighted something. So it gives you a chance to go back and add something that's relevant.

Joe Miller (52:42)
Yeah, yes.

And when we were off camera, we were talking about this notion of the union of all job requirements from hiring manager and the rest of the organization becoming like this big checklist, this big punch list, right? So I think more and more experience with AI is coming into many, roles.

Sarah (53:19)
Yes.

I think it's given and you should certainly be prepared for that. Lean into it. Another great use of AI is to take the job posting, take your resume, and ask it to tell you the 10 most likely interview questions you're likely to get and the best answers based on your experience. Now, somebody said to me,

Joe Miller (53:30)
should lead into it, right?

Sarah (53:53)
Well, then what's your job? And so this is the perfect example of why AI is not putting me out of business. It's not because, well, my job is let's do a mock interview and I'm going to give you feedback and tell you how well you did because AI can't really do that.

Joe Miller (53:59)
Exactly.

Exactly. No.

Sarah (54:11)
It's not going to see you twitching or curling your hair or stuttering or,

Joe Miller (54:13)
Ha ha ha ha!

Yeah, exactly. if you have any questions for Sarah, you could absolutely reach out to her on LinkedIn.

Why don't you go ahead and just provide us some ways of getting ahold of you, anyone who would want to get ahold of you.

Sarah (54:34)
Absolutely. So I'll share my email address. It's sarah at Avara careers, A-V-A-R-A-H careers.com. I answer my own email. I'd love to hear from your listeners. I also have a newsletter and I send out weekly career tips and job search strategies. I also have a question of the week and I take those from the most common questions and

Joe Miller (54:54)
Great.

Sarah (55:00)
You can get that at avara.co. Actually, I want to, here's what I want to say. I want to give your listeners my networking guide. It's a, all the email templates and 26 questions you can ask in a networking conversation. why, it's a longer URL. So we can put that in the link in the show notes. Yeah. Sounds great.

Joe Miller (55:16)
We'll put it in the show notes, a link. Yeah. We'll put all her links into the show notes. I

advise, ask, request, if you have gotten value out of this, drop a comment in below this episode and forward it to someone you know who might benefit because it's rough out there. And I think

Sarah's brought some great advice and I'd love to hear your thoughts and your responses. So Sarah, thank you once again for coming back on Titan's, especially at time like this to talk about these important issues.

Sarah (55:53)
It's been my pleasure, Jo, and I invite all your listeners to follow me on LinkedIn. I post daily. So if you want to get some advice on what's happening right now, check it out.

Joe Miller (56:01)
Yes.

All right, thanks a lot. Take care.

Sarah (56:09)
Thank you.