Geoff Curtis (00:00): Fast forward, I was at dinner with a Fortune 50 chief communications officer, asking that person: how long would I be relevant after I leave my corporate career? And Joe, I didn't want to ask the question, but I did want to ask the question. I was kind of between a rock and a hard place, because I kind of knew what the answer might be. And that person actually put a timeframe on it. They said a year to 18 months. Honestly, Joe, it was less about the title. I wasn't concerned about being relevant as a chief communications officer. It was as that practitioner who had been practicing for nearly 30 years. If you and I were in the same ecosystem, were you going to talk to me anymore?

Joe Miller (00:43): Hey, welcome to Titans, Geoff. You have 30 years in biotech and pharma, you had a sudden career exit in 2023, and it took you into a journey that prompted the title Embracing Your Own Purgatory. Tell us about that life-changing transition, and then we'll launch off from there.

Geoff Curtis (01:05): Well, thank you for having me, first and foremost. I'm looking forward to the discussion. It was interesting — I think when you're confronted with a job change, or any type of loss, any loss of something that has defined you for so long, it can be scary. And I think that's the best emotion to describe it. I didn't know what I was getting into, or what was going to hit me, until about a year on from when I actually exited my role. So, just like I had done the majority of my career, I thought this was a bump in the road, an obstacle. As I write in the book, "this is going to be a blip on the radar. I'm going to move on, I'm going to be fine, and whatever that next fine thing is, I'm going to find it quickly. I'm going to keep myself busy." I was just in that mindset. And so when things started to change a little bit psychologically, and things started to hit me a little bit differently, that's when I noticed it was something more than just a job change.

Joe Miller (02:06): Yeah, the word "unraveling" comes to mind, which seems odd, but I've been through a similar situation as well. You have that transition, and you try to be upbeat — okay, what's next, looking forward — and then things seem to almost slip from your fingers. And then you have to go deeper to understand what's happening. I think that's fair, isn't it?

Geoff Curtis (02:29): It is, it is. And I think "unraveling" is the right word, because we ultimately get so comfortable in what we're doing. I use the concept of armor — the armor being stripped away all of a sudden, and you're exposed to something you didn't really know, or didn't have a good idea of, because you'd shielded yourself so long from that emotional piece of what was going into your job, your career, or how you were thinking.

Joe Miller (02:59): Yeah, armor is a great word too, because we often think of it as just the defensive cocoon we put around ourselves. But it's also comfort inside the armor. Things could be going relatively well with a career or your situation in life, and you keep bebopping along, all good. And then all of a sudden the armor is cracked or removed, and you're exposed. It's disconcerting — something we're not well equipped for, or that we've trained ourselves over time to not be able to really adapt to.

Geoff Curtis (03:43): Yeah, because we don't really prepare for that thing that could happen, Joe. I think we're so comfortable that we don't know something is coming, so we don't really prepare for it. And we don't do that kind of deep, often scary work to find out: okay, what's really underneath here? If this thing were to go away, if this armor were to be stripped away, what's really underneath there? And am I happy with that? Am I okay with what's underneath? That's a little bit scary.

Joe Miller (04:12): So how did that flesh out for you? I mean, conceptually we're talking about conceptual things right now, but what was it like in real life to go through that process?

Geoff Curtis (04:22): Well, in real life, I did exactly what I said I did a couple of minutes ago — I just kept moving on. After I exited my corporate role, I immediately jumped into a fellowship at the University of Chicago. It was designed to help those in transition find out what the next path is, using your expertise to impact society in a different way. So I was trying to keep busy, doing the same things I'd done throughout my entire career — just keep busy, just keep moving on. There were two points early on — actually, one before I started the fellowship and one during. The one before, that I detail in the book, was at a gathering of senior-level communicators. It was a prestigious gathering; I'd never been invited before. Fast forward, I was at dinner with a Fortune 50 chief communications officer, asking that person how long I would be relevant after I leave my corporate career. And Joe, I didn't want to ask the question, but I did want to ask it. I kind of knew what the answer might be, and that person actually put a timeframe on it: a year to 18 months. That was a little scary — okay, well, what am I going to grasp onto if I'm not really relevant anymore in what I've been known for for the last 30 years? That was one thing. The other was the first session of the fellowship, where I was in a room with 19 others in my cohort. I was the youngest in the cohort, and I just felt outmatched, outclassed — no longer an expert in the room, where I had been many times the expert in the room. And that hit me in a different way, because I didn't have anything protecting me anymore, anything to fall back on. So those two things stand out as, "whoa, the armor is stripped away and I don't know how to handle this," because that expertise was so protective before that it did a number on me psychologically.

Joe Miller (06:32): Well, that's interesting that it showed up that way, because in a way — using the armor metaphor — you were in a friendly community that was aligned with your career, right? But even there, you were still in the identity of being in the role. There was still a separation beginning to occur. You were kind of coming out of that armor, although still with comrades, if you will.

Geoff Curtis (07:06): Yeah, and I think that's what made it a bit difficult too — being in that community still, but knowing that armor was likely going to come off, and then just getting hit with that relevance question. It took me aback.

Joe Miller (07:21): So the relevance question kind of crosses into the whole identity and self-worth framing, right? Tell me about that.

Geoff Curtis (07:30): Yeah, it definitely does, because I don't think we often think about, when we're in a role, what exactly relevance means and how we define it. The definition is just kind of placed on us, because we're in the role of chief communications officer, or we've been in communications for an extended period of time, and that's what makes you relevant within the ecosystem in which you operate. I don't know that we often think about that piece of it. So when you're not operating in that environment anymore and that's stripped away, you're trying to find a new definition of relevance — whether that means staying in the current ecosystem, if you want to, or moving in a totally different direction. There's a definition and a thought process that needs to happen in a different way. It was something I didn't think was going to hit me, because I never really questioned relevance in the past.

Joe Miller (08:34): Yeah, that's interesting — the identity and the relevance are tied to... I don't want to overuse this, but it's often tied to the title or the position, a master practitioner within that title or position, right? When you posed the question about relevance to that other person, it seems to me — I don't know — did you go to "am I going to become dated or not known," versus that idea of having all that experience and credibility and knowledge? Was there any of that dynamic? Was it just being dated in the information, or being lost or not as known in the active community?

Geoff Curtis (09:20): I think it was just wanting to understand what was going to happen to me, and how people were going to interact with me moving forward, because I'd put so much emphasis and weight into how people interacted with me in the ecosystem. Back to something you alluded to before — honestly, Joe, it was less about the title. I wasn't concerned about being relevant as a chief communications officer. It was as that practitioner who'd been practicing for nearly 30 years, knowing the same people, knowing my ecosystem. So it was: what was going to happen to me? A little bit dated, but more so — frankly, Joe, if you and I were in the same ecosystem, were you going to talk to me anymore?

Joe Miller (10:03): Yeah — were you on the short list of people I would call?

Geoff Curtis (10:09): Right, exactly. And I think that may sound silly, but it's just one of those things you think about over time: okay, I have a year to basically clean things up, or say goodbye to people who I may not speak with for a long time, because I'm just not in that space anymore, or may not be.

Joe Miller (10:27): Now I'm realizing, as I'm talking to you, that when I retired I went through something very similar. I had planned it, but it happened around the COVID pandemic, right around that timeframe. I had been volunteering and facilitating a community of CIOs, and I continued doing that — I wanted to continue doing that, and I monetized it. But even more than that, I think I was afraid, without even knowing it at a conscious level, of separating from the community. Over time — now it's been six years — the knowledge part became more of a concern for me, even as a facilitator: staying up to date on the technology shifts and the latest news. Anyway, personal story, just to underscore what you've stated: we all go through it, I think men in particular.

Geoff Curtis (11:29): Yeah. And I think, too, Joe, one important point about what you just said is that you can also redefine what knowledge you need to have. Do you need to stay up to date on all of the tech stuff, or do I need to stay up to date on all of the communication stuff? Probably not, unless it relates to the new path I may be on. And if I do, I think that's a little bit of the freedom in it too — you can pick and choose what "relevant" means to you now, and how up to date you need to stay on certain things, as long as you're staying up to date on the things that match the path you're on now.

Joe Miller (12:02): Yeah, and to be honest with you, even in that community, I've had conversations with a few of the members, and they've said, "Well, don't worry about that. You have a lot of experience in how to lead change and leadership issues, and that's really what we're looking for from you in the facilitation part of it" — which was a relief. It was something I was hoping for, but I didn't really have my eyeballs on it as much, because again, there's this really strong pull. You spend 35 years, or 30 years, doing something, and as much as you might be aware in your conscious mind about this whole identity thing tied to the role and the position, it's still a strong pull.

Joe Miller (12:49): And when you just said that — I bet that was refreshing, when that community said, "here's what we need from you." Because then it redefines things for you without your having to worry about it.

Geoff Curtis (12:52): It was, it was very refreshing. Okay, great — now I'm in a space where I actually know what people need from me, based on knowledge I still have that's never going to go away. I think that's the neat part about it: if you can find that community that defines that for you, or helps find it for you, it takes a lot of pressure off yourself to always chase it.

Joe Miller (13:23): Can we pivot a little bit now onto this idea of it being a little harder for men? One of these things is tied around how we identify ourselves, but also we're not great at being vulnerable. We have this defensive, Achilles-defensive posture where we don't want to show our flank to anybody. It's hard for men to admit if they're struggling with almost anything, to be honest. Can we dive into that a little bit? I know you talk about this.

Geoff Curtis (13:54): I'm going to make a very broad statement. For me, it wasn't necessarily — I always felt that I've been vulnerable, but not necessarily to the people who may have needed it in order to learn. It took a lot of work for me to get there, to at least be a little more transparent and vulnerable. The broad statement I want to make is that a lot of it's fear. It's the fear we pointed to earlier, about what's really underneath and what really makes you who you are. Really exploring and understanding that can be a little scary — and it can be scary to say those things out loud. I think we get into leadership positions and we think vulnerability is weakness, and we're scared to present as weak. Two examples I want to point to quickly: a former colleague of mine, actually a direct report — I write about imposter syndrome a lot in the book — we had lunch probably three weeks ago, and he said, "I suffer from imposter syndrome too. It was fascinating to read about you suffering from imposter syndrome. Why didn't we ever talk about that in the context of work, or during one of our one-on-ones?" And my question back was, "I don't know, why didn't we?" I think we both had this realization that he didn't want me to perceive him as weak or vulnerable, and I probably subconsciously didn't want him to perceive me that way, because I was leading the function. And that is strange. We could have easily had a very nice discussion about the things we were going through. Even through the writing process, yes, I'm being more vulnerable — but even yesterday, another story: I was having lunch with someone I'm on a board with, and they said, "You seem like you're at peace." And I said, "I'm not." He said, "Really? You externally present like you are at peace." So Joe, I'm still, I guess, fearful of a little bit of that vulnerability, in the context of the people I interact with. To me it's fear of being comfortable, or fear of presenting too vulnerable — and then getting to a point where you're comfortable doing it. But the feedback from men that I'm getting always starts the same: it's an email that says, "I don't know if you knew this about me, but..." and then it's four paragraphs of issues they've gone through. For me, that's great, because that's why I wrote the book. I wanted to create permission for people — not just men — to start having these types of conversations we're having right now, but in closed venues as well.

Joe Miller (16:52): Yeah. The book is important because, in a way, you open the door for people to reach out to you. Your earlier point about your colleague — the guy who worked for you — and yourself reflecting about why you didn't express your fears or vulnerability with each other, was interesting, because it's almost like you go first. We're laughing about it, but to me that's a strength for a leader in particular — but for anybody. You're leading and influencing others, even if you're not in a position, by demonstrating that you can go first and be open and transparent. That brings people into a sense of being able to trust you, because you've gone first to trust them with that. Now, is it dangerous? Sure. But over time you get more grounded in who you are, apart from titles and anything else, and not needing the approval of others — easy for me to just verbalize. When you get to that place, you're more free to take the first step.

Geoff Curtis (18:00): Yeah, and I think that's a great point, because the approval of others is such a big factor, as you just mentioned, that we don't give enough attention to. And I think it's all subliminal as well — we think we need external validation in order to move forward. And you're right: when you get to that point... I think it's the point I got to in the book, where I had to write it in a way that was going to be true to me, in the context of now knowing that I don't really need the approval of anyone. But it's still the hardest battle to fight right now. If I get a random two-star review on Goodreads or Amazon, I'm thinking, "Okay, ouch" — knife to the heart. With no comments, it's just a two-star review, and I'm thinking, "Okay, what do I need?" It's still that external validation and approval thing that triggers you in this context as well, and that's a battle you have to continue to fight.

Joe Miller (19:02): Science has proven this out — we're hardwired to prioritize the negative, to protect ourselves and to survive. So you take a positive comment and a negative comment, and we're going to respond more to the negative comment than to the positive one. And so I'm trying to make everyone feel better by saying: if you're triggered, it's okay. And maybe you feel like you shouldn't be — but we're fighting evolutionary biology here a little bit.

Joe Miller (19:38): Well, and what weighs into that now, in our present time, is social media.

Geoff Curtis (19:44): Yeah. If you just look at LinkedIn alone — and I'm guilty of this too — we're posting about the finished product, Joe. We're not posting about all the work that it took to get to that finished product. And we're very afraid to say publicly that we're not finished. And not only the evolutionary biology that you mentioned, but now there are external forces fighting against us, where you have to absolutely be polished in order to present yourself in a certain way and get that external validation, whatever it may be. People run away from the work that actually went into getting to that point — which is really the learning piece of it.

Joe Miller (20:23): Yeah, it's a journey, it's definitely a journey. I often want to coach people — I find, like, mid-level managers, even some senior managers and leaders, feeling stuck. And when I ask about their relationship with their one-up, their boss, and how that goes, there's often a lot of frustration: "I'm not recognized, they're not listening to me." This is another signal, I think, of: what are you looking for? And it's keeping you from actually showing up fully, so that you'll be trusted. Are you thinking about what your boss or your manager needs to be successful? Or do you walk into the room saying, "I have all this experience, I need to get the approval up front"? That's just not the real world — whether you want it to be that way or not, it's just not the way it operates.

Geoff Curtis (21:20): That's so right, too. And the other thing I'll add is that too often there's a mismatch in that relationship from a vulnerability and empathy standpoint. That's the other tough piece of it: if the direct report is coming in with more vulnerability and more empathy or humility, and the leader or your manager is not there, that's going to be a difficult mismatch as well. So not only may you not get the external validation, but you may not get the depth of relationship you think you need to be internally validated. So that's a very interesting battle.

Joe Miller (21:56): Yeah, there's certainly a lot more to it.

Geoff Curtis (22:02): Yes. It's really good to point that out, for sure.

Joe Miller (22:04): So, turning it outward — Future Voices Collective. Tell me about that.

Geoff Curtis (22:12): So it's the passion project for me and my wife. I'm a first-gen college graduate, and obviously spent nearly 30 years in the communications industry. So we wanted to find a way to turn my experiences on both fronts into something that could be helpful for the next generation of communicators. We launched a fellowship program officially about a month ago. Our first cohort starts in September — 23 students from six different universities. We're really focused on how we help those students have durable and meaningful careers in industry, but also economically mobile careers within industry. How do we get them better prepared to have some longevity, and importantly, amplify the skill set that first-generation students have, which in my opinion is in demand right now from an employer standpoint — but also address some of the obstacles that may exist? We're going to be in a pilot for probably about two years, because it's a two-year fellowship, and we'll see how things go. For me, it's one of those — back to our earlier discussion — not that I so much need to be relevant anymore, but I'm learning that I am relevant, from a skill standpoint, as you pointed out: knowledge, experience, life experience more than career experience, in a different way. That's the journey I'm on — finding, trying to find success (in air quotes) through different mechanisms, different metrics, but also finding out what gives me joy and meaning as I move forward outside the traditional career.

Joe Miller (23:53): To be able to work with your wife on a passion project like this — it sounds exciting. And you're talking about teaching them the skills, and you alluded to the other obstacles. I imagine you're going to bring in some of what we've been talking about, in terms of what it's like to work in a career and setting some expectations up front, as well. Is that part of it?

Geoff Curtis (24:14): Yeah, that is definitely part of it. There's a lot of research about obstacles, but also skill sets, from a first-gen standpoint. Using my experience: I really didn't know how to navigate networks. I didn't know how to negotiate salary. I didn't know the ins and outs of the industry I was getting into — my career kind of happened by accident. I fell into the healthcare, pharma, biotech space by accident. I didn't have a lot of background there, and I also didn't know, from my parents' experience, how to navigate a corporate world. So that's the preparation we're helping with: how do you accentuate not only your experiences and your story to leverage those into good careers, but also how are you better equipped? And me saying that I've been there — I may have different experiences than these students, I know I've had different experiences than these students, but I've been in places where they're likely going to be. And here's what I didn't know, and here's what you need to know. So hopefully we can get them better prepared to navigate the world they'll enter into.

Joe Miller (25:26): Okay, I'd like to pivot to the book now. Can you tell us about the book?

Geoff Curtis (25:32): Yes — available on Amazon, available on Barnes & Noble online: Embracing Your Own Purgatory. Based on what we've been talking about, I got to a point in 2024 where I was really depressed with my life, and I didn't know where I was going or what I was doing. I'd always thought I had a book in me, but I didn't know exactly what it was going to be. The original concept was "a communicator who couldn't communicate his own transition," and that would have been a little more business-y focused. I didn't know if I wanted to go exactly there. Then, when I was talking to the publisher, I really started working through a concept of: how can we learn to be more comfortable with the discomfort that exists in our lives — and when we lose something that has defined us, whether it's a job, the loss of a loved one, the loss of a relationship, anything — how do we act, and how can we be productive in those times? In that journey of writing and reflection throughout my life, I noticed some patterns I'd had throughout my career: deep emotional avoidance in certain situations that I masked with work. I wasn't dealing with a lot of things. So throughout the book, I deal with things we've been talking about — professional identity, purgatory, purpose purgatory, perceived loss of expertise — all through my story, but also the story of others. I interview probably six people throughout the book who are at different points in their lives and careers and journeys. I really wanted to get to the heart of: am I experiencing similar things that other people experience? How did they act in those situations, how did they react, and how did they move on? And the key piece — I wrote it while I was still in it. Frankly, I'm still in it, trying to find that path out. I really wanted to say, back to the unfinished piece of it, that it's okay to be unfinished. I'm unfinished, and here's my journey through it. I don't have a plan at the end. I don't give anybody five steps on how to navigate this. It's more permission — permission to talk about this stuff out loud. That's the step I wanted to take. I wrote the book for myself, with no audience in mind, really. But now, as we talked about, I'm starting to hear from men, from others in transition, from others who have lost loved ones — all of the things.

Joe Miller (28:10): It seems like it's very cathartic for other people to read the book and realize they're not alone — and also benefit from some of your learnings. I love that you're humble enough to say you haven't got it all wired and nailed down, and you're still in process. But I'm sure there are lots of observations and lessons learned that would be very beneficial to folks.

Geoff Curtis (28:39): Yeah, I hope so. The pushback I'm getting is that it's not the right book for people who want to plan — but it's the right book for people who just want to hear how people express how they're feeling. That's one thing I'm learning. The other thing is that, through feedback, I'm seeing that people are now able to put themselves in certain scenarios, or at least be better prepared when things may happen. And that is exactly what I wanted people to get out of the book.

Joe Miller (29:17): Do you think there are certain entry points? Were there two or three different situations they were in? Were they sensing they were going to go through a transition like this, or were they already in it? Why did they come to your book? How could you resonate with other people on the journey who found value in reading your book?

Geoff Curtis (29:38): I'll point to two or three quick stories that came my way. The first: I write a chapter about when my father passed away in 2007, and my behavior during that time — and my behavior since, when I was in industry. I was kind of ignoring the emotional components of it, trying to fix him: networking with physicians, doctors, all those people to help fix him — but I was ignoring the emotional component. One of our last conversations was about passwords — bank passwords, 401(k) passwords — that was one of our last meaningful conversations. Fast forward: somebody teased that chapter via LinkedIn, in one of the pre-promotion things, and somebody I used to work with was in the hospital with a loved one. That person noticed they were sitting by the hospital bed on their laptop at 10 p.m. doing work. Even that brief story resonated with them, and they said, "I'm not going to do that anymore. I realize the importance of being present, for those around me, regardless of the situation. This is not the most important thing — the person, wherever they may be, in a hospital bed next to you or just on the couch, that's the place I should be." Similarly, there was a colleague from industry who, unfortunately, had lost a child in childbirth, and came to me and said, "I was already preparing for my identity as a mother, and now I'm not going to be — now I'm not a mother." So it's just people dissecting differently what it means as identity, what it means to be present, in different scenarios. I think those are two primary entry points I point to, because that's the unlikely thing people go to when you're thinking about transition. We often think of the career transition, but you don't think of all the other identity factors that make up the different pieces of our lives. Aside from that, I think imposter syndrome is a big one, and people pointing to — as I already pointed out — other relational things. The way I was thinking in certain situations is really attractive to people coming to me and saying, "I did the exact same thing when I jumped from job to job — I was really emotionally avoiding things." There are many entry points throughout the book for people.

Joe Miller (32:10): For those who read the book and want to reach you, what's the best way of doing that?

Geoff Curtis (32:15): The best way to reach me is on LinkedIn — Geoffrey Curtis is my profile. And if people would like to buy the book, it's on Amazon, as I mentioned, and BarnesandNoble.com — and it's popping up in libraries here and there, so everything's exciting.

Joe Miller (32:28): Besides this passion project we talked about — Future Voices Collective — are there other things you're doing as well? Do you have consulting services, or are you giving talks?

Geoff Curtis (32:38): Yeah, I'm doing a little bit of coaching here and there, just for people in industry — mostly mid-level to senior-level managers. But I know that if the Future Voices Collective is going to work, I have to devote a majority of my time to that, because I really want to see it work. As I mentioned, it's a passion. I love helping students, I love speaking with students — I speak with so many in a given month that I've lost count. It's just so fun, and I'm so committed to making sure they succeed that I kind of have to, at this time, devote my full attention to it.

Joe Miller (33:16): Talking about students — one recurring theme that's come up in my interviews is the idea that we often pursue a career based on what we hear others say would be good to do. This is a period of time when people are starting to nail down their direction — or at least they think they are. Many people go through major shifts; I certainly have. How did you come into your career? Was it something you thought you were going to do? Did you feel you were always going to be involved with communications or writing, from an early age? Or is it something you pivoted into? I'm just curious about your story.

Geoff Curtis (33:54): Yeah. I was an English writing major undergrad — sounds pretty close — but I didn't know what I was going to do with that. I think everybody hears "English" and automatically thinks teaching. At the time when I was in school, we didn't necessarily have a robust career-advancement center, so I was kind of searching and doing things on my own to find out where a specific skill set, or where a major, may fit. I really didn't know. I knew at the time I didn't want to teach. So I did an internship in the advertising/publishing industry, where I was doing some writing, and had a PR internship at a small agency that gave me my first job. Then, Joe, honestly, there was a large PR firm in Chicago where — to what you just said — people said, "You have to go work there if you're going to be in this career." And I listened to that. But the whole PR career, even after that first job at a small boutique agency, I didn't know if it was for me. So when I interviewed at that large agency, I initially interviewed for a consumer tech team job, and didn't get it. They said, "Go try healthcare, they're hiring." And I fell into it, as I mentioned earlier, by accident. I didn't have a biology background, any science background — just fell into it by accident. Loved it, and built a career out of it. But in those early stages, I didn't have somebody telling me that your first job is not going to be your last job. So I was still finding my own way, and just what I liked to do. I liked it enough where I said, "Okay, let's try this," or "let's keep trying this."

Joe Miller (35:33): I think trial and error is absolutely great, because it's hard to discover that Ikigai thing — the Venn diagram of your abilities, your gifting, all the different factors. One of the signals in coaching that a person might be in the wrong area: they feel like they're pushing a rock up a hill all the time. Then they're probably not aligned. I'm really big on your natural gifting. Often people will get into a place where they "love" something, and it's really the right fit for them, because they get energy out of it. You still have to work hard, but it's not just draining energy. Draining energy is a big signal.

Geoff Curtis (36:18): Yeah, and people underestimate, to your point, the positive energy that an actual job can provide — and really paying attention to that. People don't pay attention to the energy they're actually getting, because they get to a certain point where they're so enmeshed that they're not really concerned about the energy. They're concerned about doing the job and checking the box. But if you don't pay attention to that, then you don't know if that next thing is the right thing — frankly, if you don't know where you get your energy. Defining that energy source is a big factor.

Joe Miller (36:51): I like to ask a question that's over-asked, but I think is still very valuable: looking back on your career, is there some advice you'd give to your younger self?

Geoff Curtis (37:05): 100%, and I'm glad you asked. Be present. I didn't know what being present meant — whether that's for family, loved ones, colleagues. I wasn't present. Through the process I investigated in the book, I'm now rebuilding some friendships, rebuilding some relationships, because I was so focused and enmeshed in my career and my job that I just wasn't present enough for everyone. That stands out to me because my wife has always said that she knew the job came first, always, for me. And that's a sad thing to hear. We're fine — obviously we're working together, doing a lot of different things — but that's one of the realizations you have to have when you go through a process like this: you have to hear that type of feedback. That sets me in a direction of, okay, I need to do things differently. So that's the piece of advice that really stands out for me. And I think people earlier in their career should learn it, because you can have both. You can be present, you can live a life, and still have a very successful career. The last thing I'll say: I was speaking with a rising senior in college, probably about a month ago. We'd met for the first time, and she said, "I want to go into this career, but I also just enjoy living life and having fun." And I said, "You know what? You can do both. You can have a successful career and still enjoy life. Take it from me, because I didn't, and I'm learning how to do that now." The fact that she was thinking about that at an early age — about bifurcating those things and having two potentially different identities...

Joe Miller (39:07): Awesome. Great. We need to hear more of that — and more people who can focus on those things, not at the expense of one or the other. Hopefully more people can start to have that realization. And being present isn't just the dynamic of being home with your family. It's also being present in the office, or the virtual office these days — listening to others, being present to really hear them, instead of getting in your own world, your own lane. There's also, I think, a false message out there: that if you're not committed in your role — or if you're not working many, many hours — you're not committed. And it's just wrong. It's this time-on-the-clock versus contribution, or actual results obtained. It's just wrong-headed. Being busy and running around doesn't mean you're adding any value at all. I had a great friend — I'll call him out, Geoff, years ago — I worked, I don't know, 16-hour days in my career. He was younger than me, he worked for me, and he just said, "Well, it's all arbitrary." And I go, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "You can't work more than 24 hours a day. You probably can't even work 24 hours a day. At some point you have to draw a line. So the question is, when do you draw the line?" The light bulb really went off. I realized that if I always knew, at the end of a normal workday of eight or nine hours, that I still had four or five more hours when people left the office — that I could still get work done — it made me very inefficient in how I used my time during those first eight hours.

Geoff Curtis (40:55): Yep — something I talk about in the book too: busy-ness doesn't equal productivity. You kind of alluded to that. I think the hardest part now is finding out, okay, what does actually-productive-busy look like? And again, it all ties together — to energy, to passion, to those things. That's why I find that, with Future Voices Collective in particular, that is productive-busy, and I'm fine with that. But I need to get used to that feeling.

Joe Miller (41:24): Well, Geoff, I'll make an offer to you. If you want to get back together again, after the Future Voices Collective has been running for a while, we can maybe revisit how that's going. I'd love to do that, to hear from you.

Geoff Curtis (41:38): I would love to do that.

Joe Miller (41:41): And I just encourage everyone — I'll definitely have links in the show notes to get to the book and to find Geoff on LinkedIn. But I encourage you, if you've resonated, to pick up a copy of Geoff's book. I just love the honesty. A lot of what he's shared with me, on camera and off camera, I resonate with as being truth. And there's so much BS out there — but it's refreshing. So Geoff, thank you so much for coming on Titans of Transition. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom.

Geoff Curtis (42:15): Thank you, Joe. Really enjoyed this conversation.